I was in Mexico City two weeks ago and a few uber drivers were driving BYD Dolphins.
I was impressed. At a $14k price point, I can’t imagine better value for money. I got sucked into research and there are no near term plans for expanding to the US market.
It’s too bad. They’re expecting to sell 500,000 units in Mexico this year. With the current (lower) emissions standards, I’m optimistic such affordable EVs will make a big difference to air quality in the coming years.
haunter 32 days ago [-]
>At a $14k price point
In China maybe where it's 100k RMB (~roughly $14k). Everywhere else it's the double or at least $25k. It's £26k ($32k) in the UK. It's €32k ($33k) in Germany
In Australia the entry level "Dolphin essential" is A$30k which is between US$18.5k and US$21k, depending on the (fairly volatile) exchange rates.
Still not US$14k, but not quite the $25k it is in other markets.
senti_sentient 32 days ago [-]
He probably meant Seagull, which is also sold as Dolphin Mini in some countries.
SapporoChris 31 days ago [-]
"The Seagull went on sale in Mexico as the Dolphin Mini in March 2024. It is available in two variants, dubbed the Dolphin Mini and Dolphin Mini Plus, which are equipped with a 30.88 kWh and 38.88 kWh battery respectively."
Nope... US$120k is most likely the base price (car + taxes). The Certificate of Enrolment (CoE) is market rate, and right now it's an additional SG$85k to SG$111k depending on the vehicle category (on top of the base price).
I read that flyer as the price of the car plus COE. The "Excite Package" Dolphin lists "Guaranteed COE" for $165,888 Singapore dollars ($122,505 USD) all in.
>In Singapore, most people typically purchase new vehicles through dealers. Dealers will collect orders from customers and participate in the COE bidding on behalf of their customers.
>Supply and demand set the price for COE, which regulates demand. When COE prices are high, vehicle prices, as quoted by dealers, will have to increase, reducing demand. When COE prices are lower, dealers can afford to reduce prices if they want to, which will increase demand.
It looks like dealers handle getting the COE (which makes sense, since you couldn't drive the vehicle off the lot without one).
Subtract the $85,000 (SD) CAT A COE cost from the car price and it comes out to $80,000 (SD), or ~$60,000 USD.
pfd1986 32 days ago [-]
Just did a quick check and it translates to $30K in Brazil as well
kawera 32 days ago [-]
Entry level Dolphins cost $20.5k in Brazil (R$118k).
haunter 32 days ago [-]
That's the Dolphin Mini, a totally different car
32 days ago [-]
32 days ago [-]
testfrequency 32 days ago [-]
I was just about to comment that a friend of mine owns a BYD and I got to drive his while in Mexico. Can’t remember the model, but it’s a crossover style.
I was ready to hate on it, but for the price and quality inside at least, wild. It also drove like any other car in the low/mid range that I’ve owned, wheel felt confident and had some heft to it (my preference).
rainsford 32 days ago [-]
I'll admit I don't quite understand how EV demand works in lower income countries like Mexico. One of the major limits I see in the US is that the main appeal of having an EV is reasonably good (i.e. level 2) charging at home, which isn't an available option for many people in the US who don't have private garages with good electrical service. I feel like this limitation would be even more widespread in a country like Mexico, but maybe that's either incorrect or the appeal of EVs outside of the US doesn't rely quite so much on charging at home.
femto 32 days ago [-]
Having just bought an EV, the charging requirements seem to be exaggerated. I'm able to put a bit over 100km range into the car with an overnight charge (9 hours) from a standard power point that can deliver 2.4kW. I'm just using a portable 10A/240V plug-in charger: no fixed infrastructure.
My typical charging regime is: charge to 80%. Drive until the car has done 100km (down to ~50% capacity), then charge back up to 80%. If we go over 100km in a day the car drops below 50%. That can't be topped up in a single night, but it just means the charging accumulates over the next few nights until it's back to 80%. It works as long as the average is less than 100km per day and the peak is less than 300km per day.
Whilst it wouldn't do for a taxi, it's perfectly okay for the driving we do.
jdeibele 32 days ago [-]
I have a Chevy Bolt EUV and charged it on an ordinary US 120V circuit. Because there was nothing else on the circuit, I could tell the Bolt to charge at 12A at home, otherwise it limits itself to 8A anywhere that's not-home. It seemed to be about 3 miles of range per hour at 12A, 2 mph at 8A.
It actually worked pretty well for me. There were a couple of times I ended up "fast" (the Bolt is slow at DC charging) charging but very few in more than a year. The garage didn't have 240V power and we knew we were moving.
At the new house, I have a 240V 60A hardwired circuit for the EV charger so I can charge much faster, probably 25 miles of range per hour, maybe more. I haven't used a fast charger in probably six months.
It is a shock seeing what cold temperatures do to range in the Bolt. We have an Equinox EV and it seems to do better plus it has a longer range to start with.
nickpeterson 32 days ago [-]
The problem in the US is that outlets run at 120v and an overnight charge is closer to 30-40 miles of range assuming 12amp on a 15amp circuit.
In countries with most outlets at 220v it’s probably easier, plus usually less long distance driving than the US.
Obviously if you put a 240v, 50amp outlet in a garage you can ignore everything I just wrote.
redserk 32 days ago [-]
I've been using a 120V outlet for a few years. I recoup about 50-60mi overnight without an issue. I figured I'd get around to installing a 240V outlet but it just hasn't been necessary.
jfengel 32 days ago [-]
In the US our regular outlets are more like 1.5kW (110V 15A).
There are also 30A circuits, usually for a dryer or stove. An electrician can set it up for a car, but it's not as easy as running an extension cord to a regular outlet.
m463 32 days ago [-]
and 50a circuits.
zdragnar 32 days ago [-]
You won't find easy access to 240v in most US homes. They're usually put in for very specific appliances like electric laundry dryers or hot tubs. To get your level of charging, most people will need at least some electrical work done.
Your 100km limit is also less than my wife's round trip commute to work, nevermind adding in running errands after or any of the regular travel we do to visit family, though at least some of that would be easy with upgraded charging.
Edit: to be more specific, most US outlets top out at 1.5kw to be safe, though they can usually be temporarily pushed to 1.8 for things like an electric kettle.
rsynnott 32 days ago [-]
That’s essentially _just_ a North America thing (and a couple of countries in South America), tho.
In most countries standard mains outlets are 220-240V, usually 10-15amp depending on country.
> Your 100km limit is also less than my wife's round trip commute to work, nevermind adding in running errands after or any of the regular travel we do to visit family
Even by US standards, that is somewhat unusually high.
zdragnar 31 days ago [-]
Eh, the average US commute is 27 miles according to a recent WSJ article, though this is somewhat recent as it was a bit shorter before COVID.
With that said, ignoring 600 million people, including the single most car-centric cultures, seems a bit silly when talking about EV adoption challenges, no?
heyjamesknight 32 days ago [-]
Unless your commute is long, charging overnight on a standard outlet is more than sufficient. We have two EVs—one for my daily ~50 mile round trip commute while the other stays in the neighborhood most the time—and we never have to charge outside the home.
barbazoo 32 days ago [-]
Gotta take people’s commutes into account. Level 2 isn’t a necessity for many people especially in less car centric environments.
torginus 32 days ago [-]
Solar is super cheap nowadays - you can have a complete 5kW solar install with an 5kWh battery for around $2000 + labor. I'd argue a similar proportion of people have their own houses.
Additionally, a level 2 charger is just a high amperage wall socket plus some safety equipment.
hervature 32 days ago [-]
This is incredibly misleading. The average price per solar install is $3/W so your 5kWh is probably much closer to $15k. Additionally, "+ labor" is actually 66% of the price of solar in the USA (soft costs + balance of system). Could you do the labor yourself? Of course. Do you have the time and tools? Probably not. Is saying "$2000 + labor" false? Technically, no, functionally, yes. All numbers taken from [1]. These do not include batteries in the install.
we're talking about mexico, not the weirdly over-inflated home solar price of the US. For eg australia is around ~ $1/w installed, and they have high labor costs. It doesnt have to be expensive, the US makes it so somehow.
dalyons 32 days ago [-]
(I would genuinely like an explanation for why it’s so much more expensive in the US. Australia is not cheap for basically anything - high materials and labor cost comparatively. I don’t understand how solar in the US costs so much more. )
rsynnott 32 days ago [-]
Since Trump’s first term, the US has had 25% tariffs on solar panels from China and a few other countries, which certainly wouldn’t be helping.
That said, the Australia price seems particularly cheap; is that before grants and things? In Ireland, say, it’s typically 1.5-2eur/W before grant (grant is .7eur/W up to 2kW, .2eur/W up to 4kW, capped at 1800).
DoesntMatter22 31 days ago [-]
Panels In The US are ultra cheap. It's mostly the labor and some of inverters and what not that's expensive
addicted 32 days ago [-]
Most other countries in the world also don’t tend to have the US’s extremely large distances either.
Things tend to be much closer than they are in the U.S.
rsynnott 32 days ago [-]
Urban taxis often don’t actually drive all that far per day.
boredatoms 32 days ago [-]
Is it possible to import them from Mexio to US as a used-car?
Yeah... I'm sure it's just to protect the market from lack of parts, protect the user's privacy and prevent cars from randomly exploding in the streets. Makes total sense.
That was a sarcastic comment. I think the sarcasm was not clear enough. Sorry about that.
cpursley 32 days ago [-]
Only after 25 years.
vitaflo 32 days ago [-]
They’re not coming to the US market because there’s a 100% tariff on Chinese EVs. Biden signed that last year.
m463 32 days ago [-]
I thought lots of inexpensive cars have never made it into the US market because they didn't meet safety standards.
rsynnott 32 days ago [-]
There’s a demand aspect; you generally have to produce a version per market. ~No EU-spec cars would be saleable in the US, as they wouldn’t meet safety standards (for instance, very different rules on lights) and vice versa. These standards can often seem trivial, but having two versions of a car is expensive. So “doesn’t meet safety standards” usually means “it is not worth anyone’s time to produce a local version, either for demand or tariff barrier reasons”.
lesuorac 32 days ago [-]
Isn't 14k with a 100% tariff still way cheaper than a Tesla?
zdragnar 32 days ago [-]
Nobody actually pays $14k but the Chinese themselves. It's usually in the equivalent of $25k to $30's.
Throw in the tariffs and what not, and you lose out to other low end EV models.
TiredOfLife 31 days ago [-]
I thought that tariffs are bad and only punish americans, and anybody imposing them is an evil dictator or something like that.
32 days ago [-]
adrr 32 days ago [-]
US doesn't have a large demand for EVs so I doubt we'll see BYD in the US. They are building a factory in Mexico that is capable of 300,000 vehicles per year.
slashdev 32 days ago [-]
Not sure where you get that info from.
Demand is also relative to price and US EVs are very expensive.
adrr 32 days ago [-]
"“We’re not planning to come to the US,” Stella Li, executive vice president of BYD and CEO of BYD Americas, told Yahoo Finance Live (video above). “It’s an interesting market, but it is very complicated,” she added, citing growing political pushback on Chinese companies and the slowing rate of growth for EV adoption."
From the largest maker of BEVs.
slashdev 32 days ago [-]
Fully-electric vehicles (BEVs) were 8.1% of all U.S. light vehicle sales in 2024. EV sales were up 15% year-over-year.
The CEO is worried about how hostile the U.S. market might be for Chinese companies, not about low demand.
adrr 31 days ago [-]
China hit 50% of all new cars sold last summer. Mexico 8.2% of their cars were EVs last year and had 70% growth. US doesn't have an EV market, once the EV credits get pulled, bottom is going to fall out.
slashdev 31 days ago [-]
In 2024, battery electric vehicles (BEVs) made up 25% of new car sales in China (to compare apples to apples.)
That's a lot more than the US, but that's not the point. 8% is plenty large enough to be sizable market.
EV credits going away will dampen that, but that will also be partly or even fully offset just by how fast that segment is growing.
SequoiaHope 32 days ago [-]
“BYD doesn’t want to sell in the US” (I presume due to strong anti-China sentiment which would harm an industry that is closely regulated by the government) is very different from “the US doesn’t have a large market for EVs” especially when the EVs BYD makes are low cost. And with Musk close with the government, BYD would be unlikely to be treated well any time soon. It makes sense that the CEO says “it is very complicated” but that is not the same as “the market is small”.
macintux 32 days ago [-]
That doesn't say that demand is low, but that adoption is slowing, which could reflect many factors, including high prices.
adrr 32 days ago [-]
Are they high? Average price paid in 2024 for a new car was $50k. There are tons of EVs under that price from Tesla model 3/y, For Mach E,Hyundai Ionic, a bunch of KIA models, VW ID4 etc.
drawkward 32 days ago [-]
Good job! You continue to fail to subtantiate your original claim (low US EV demand) very well!
A+ goalpost moving!
slashdev 31 days ago [-]
The auto industry in general appears to be slowing world wide
rsynnott 32 days ago [-]
In terms of percentage of sales, the US is one of the smaller markets: https://ourworldindata.org/electric-car-sales (see the breakdown under “ Share of new cars sold that are battery-electric and plug-in hybrid, 2010 to 2023”, particularly the battery-electric section)
Now, the US is a big market, but even so, particularly with the US’s tariff barriers and unique consumer preferences (the average car in the US is a lot _bigger_ than elsewhere, and cars made for other markets do not sell well; for instance see the leaf), you can see why car makers would prefer to focus on the EU and China.
hnburnsy 32 days ago [-]
Watch Out of Spec for reviews of the latest Chinese EV tech including ADAS and battery swapping...
I was floored by what they are producing in China. It is a shame that these cars are not reaching more of the world and raising the competitive bar. I get the government subsidy and lower labor costs issues, but the tariffs are retarding competition, propping up prices, and hurting consumers.
999900000999 32 days ago [-]
Its all about milking Americans for more money.
Without all the trade restrictions, you could buy a BYD EV for 10k. It's not the greatest car ever, but it would be a cool city car. Naw, better go and pay 40k for a worse American version.
Temu is getting basically banned. It's not enough I pay around 40% of my income on in taxes and healthcare insurance, I now much pay higher prices for the same stuff on Amazon.
addicted 32 days ago [-]
Americans are paying a lot for cars not because western manufacturers cannot make cheaper cars.
American cars are expensive because Americans have been convinced buying big SUVs is AMERICAN and patriotic, and even the Americans who aren’t dumb enough to fall for that nonsense have to buy bigger cars because we’re in a car size arms race and it’s outright scary driving a normal hatchback around these massive Trucks masquerading as cars.
This has lowered demand for smaller and cheaper cars, giving auto manufacturers the perfect excuse to stop selling small cars in the U.S. especially since SUVs are just not profitable because they’re unsophisticated and yet super expensive.
michpoch 32 days ago [-]
> Without all the trade restrictions, you could buy a BYD EV for 10k.
No, you couldn’t. In Switzerland there are no EV trade restrictions and no, we do not have 10k BYDs. They cost roughly same as any other Western manufacturer.
rangestransform 32 days ago [-]
It’s a UAW handout that’s trickled down through Government Motors™
MangoCoffee 32 days ago [-]
China is very good at mass production. Once they master the art, with the backing of the Chinese government, they can afford to lose money to gain market share. All U.S. car companies, including Tesla, would die if the U.S. allowed Chinese 10k car in.
Hell, Obama didn’t let the auto industry die back in 2008. Can you imagine Trump, who said there would be a "bloodbath" in the auto industry without him—allowing a $10K Chinese car into the U.S. market?
suraci 32 days ago [-]
> with the backing of the Chinese government, they can afford to lose money to gain market share
I'm curious which one lost more money, openai or byd
addicted 32 days ago [-]
BYD has been profitable for decades.
dyauspitr 32 days ago [-]
I can absolutely imagine Trump allowing just about anything if he gets sufficient kickbacks. He has no love for the US.
bamboozled 32 days ago [-]
It’s free market capitalism. At least they’re deleting the government. That should save you a few dollars, right ?
999900000999 32 days ago [-]
I'd actually be open to a libertarian government if that's what we got.
If before firing thousands upon thousands of government workers, they say eliminated all income taxes on your first 100k, it would do something for the middle class.
I really feel like US taxes are the worst of both worlds. They aren't much lower than in Europe where most(all?) countries have much cheaper if not free healthcare.
A system where getting fired usually cuts off your health insurance sounds like a dystopian novel. Serious health issues have a tendency to stop you from working.
No matter where in the world you go as a US citizen you still owe US taxes.
al_hag 32 days ago [-]
What does it mean to say you get lower labor cost and government subsidy issues? Are you saying the tariffs are disproportionate to the impact of the subsidies? Temporary price distortions eliminate competition, not encourage it.
hnburnsy 32 days ago [-]
>lower labor cost and government subsidy issues
These are the arguments in favor of tariffs on Chinese autos, I understand they cause a disparity, and yes, IMO they are disproportionate.
noizejoy 32 days ago [-]
> IMO they are disproportionate.
Typing the three letters in “IMO” is most certainly easier than doing/documenting complex financial analysis.
gruez 32 days ago [-]
The EU might have done a careful calculation with their tarrifs, but the US's tariffs of 100% seems closer to a nice round number they thought sounded good than carefully thought out "proportionate" response to whatever the Chinese governments' subsidies were.
bee_rider 32 days ago [-]
Lots of people don’t do the analysis and leave out the IMO, so at least this is more honest.
testfrequency 32 days ago [-]
Just an FYI, Kyle (owner of Out of Spec) is a complete narcissistic jerk who treats his girlfriend like complete crap.
It was a pretty bad and uncomfortable pattern to watch unfold online, and many people unfollowed their work because of how awful his (and honestly a few of the others who contribute) attitude(s) are.
rcdemski 32 days ago [-]
Any recommendations on where to read more about this? While his style never really engaged me, I never pegged him as being a terrible person.
hnburnsy 32 days ago [-]
Don't know anything about that, but watching a 4 minute battery swap was pretty cool.
testfrequency 32 days ago [-]
They do interesting deep dives and more thorough benchmarks in the EV space, which does stink to not be able to enjoy anymore..I just can’t in good faith support them.
hnburnsy 32 days ago [-]
Thanks for the info, will keep it in mind.
judge2020 32 days ago [-]
Given their M/O is seemingly using indentured Uighur servants, it probably wouldn’t work economically here.
They've also got factories in Europe, South America, and a bunch of other countries. The cars from those factories aren't as inexpensive as the cars from the Chinese factories but they are still pretty low priced for the areas those factories are building for.
They could probably build cars in one of those places that would be economically viable in the US if not for the tariffs, and would satisfy US labor sensibilities.
hnburnsy 32 days ago [-]
Well at least we are protecting those automotive union jobs so that the average MSRP can top $50K.
tzs 32 days ago [-]
Are we? Only about 16% of US auto workers are union.
When states started offering incentives like big tax breaks to get auto makers to build factories outside of they often made those breaks contingent on the plants not being unionized. Those states also often had laws designed to make it much harder for unions to organize.
rangestransform 31 days ago [-]
remember when biden tried to offer an increased EV tax credit for union built EVs
shameless UAW vote buying
Mr-Frog 32 days ago [-]
I read the article and while it definitely seems like visa abuse, I saw no reference to Uyghur people. I think you are conflating several issues here.
Also the workers in that article are supposedly being paid very close to $7/hr, which is close to Brazil's median income.
999900000999 32 days ago [-]
Thank God we never do that here.
>Intricate, invisible webs, just like this one, link some of the world’s largest food companies and most popular brands to jobs performed by U.S. prisoners nationwide, according to a sweeping two-year AP investigation into prison labor that tied hundreds of millions of dollars’ worth of agricultural products to goods sold on the open market.
Not really, if only because the OP specifically said "so it wouldn't work here".
Not just whataboutism.
calvinmorrison 32 days ago [-]
Tu che
Freedom2 32 days ago [-]
Isn't prison labor a large part of some town's economies? Sounds like it could work just fine, so your assertion is false.
suraci 32 days ago [-]
i trust uyghur workers
uyghur workers are same as other chinese workers, smart, hardworking, diligent, reliable, and they don't bring drugs to factory
btw, we are all forced labor in the 'world factory', forced to work overtime and earn little, to serve the empire and its golden 1b people
bradgessler 32 days ago [-]
Why are US EVs 2-3x the cost of BYD EVs? Do US consumers not want cars at that price point, is it regulation, is to labor/material costs, or some combination thereof?
It seems like if there was a $15-$20k EV in the US market, it would be a no-brainer "around town" second car.
Instead we get $30k Model 3/Y's or $80k EV SUV/Vans.
seanmcdirmid 32 days ago [-]
Nissan Leaf now starts at $28k. Chevy Bolt is now $26.5k (was, now discontinued). Given that the dolphin goes for $21k in Mexico, it isn't a huge price diff, definitely not 2-3x. Not sure where you see Model 3 for just $30k, it starts at $40k in the USA. Only in China does a model 3 cost $32k.
tzs 32 days ago [-]
> Not sure where you see Model 3 for just $30k, it starts at $40k in the USA
Probably from Tesla.com. It lists the long range RWD cash price as $29920 (in my state) unless you notice the checked checkbox that says "Include est. incentives of $7,500 and 5-year gas savings of $<whatever> for <your_state>" and uncheck it.
$whatever is $5000 for my state.
AtlasBarfed 32 days ago [-]
Still expensive for a swastika.
This will be interesting to unpack, seeing what happens to Tesla in a marketing theory sense.
I predict that Chinese and us manufacturers will partner or rebadge Mexican or Canadian made Chinese EVs within a decade
Also, I believe the sodium ion battery has yet to impact the EV market. In theory a 200-300 mile car of sodium ion batteries should be 1/2 that of NCM drivetrain or less. That should enable a sub 10k car even in the us
_huayra_ 32 days ago [-]
> Nissan Leaf now starts at $28k.
Kinda missing the point that you get 50% more range in the Dolphin, plus a lot of additional niceties / tech stuff that is just not available in the Leaf.
rsynnott 31 days ago [-]
There are more competitive cars at the price point in Europe (the Leaf is kinda long in the tooth now; second-gen is 8 years old), but the US is likely not a priority market for cheap EVs; it's a smaller market for EVs _in general_ than either Europe or China, and it's also not a good market for small cars.
I assume that the 25k EUR id.2 (replacement for the VW eUp, out early next year) will launch in the US, tho, and should be competitive with the Dolphin.
seanmcdirmid 32 days ago [-]
> Kinda missing the point that you get 50% more range in the Dolphin,
Nissan leaf: 240 km (149 miles) for the 40 kWh version and 341 km (212 miles) for the 62 kWh version.
BYD Dolphin: 340 km (211 mi) for the 45 Kwh version, 427 km (265 mi) for the 60kWh version. The cheapest 30 KwH version doesn't have a WLTP range that I can find (I don't think it is being exported outside of China anyways according to wiki).
Leaf is less, but it isn't 50% of the range.
bestouff 32 days ago [-]
Not 50% but 240km to 340km is still more than 40%. Not too bad.
bagels 32 days ago [-]
The Chevy Bolt was discontinued.
tw04 32 days ago [-]
Not exactly. There is a 2025/26 model coming out. They just stopped selling it while they moved it to a new platform and battery.
The Leaf has just been discontinued and Nissan is running out the remaining stock at about 30% discount, making it one of the cheapest EVs in the market where I live. If it's the car you want, now's a good time to buy a Leaf.
rsynnott 31 days ago [-]
There'll be another one along next year, though it may or may not be called a Leaf.
wkat4242 32 days ago [-]
Doesn't that have very bad battery degradation due to lack of cooling system for it? That's what my friend said who is really into EVs. Personally I don't have any type of car.
rsynnott 32 days ago [-]
Well… I mean that was the case 8 years ago, though it was somewhat exaggerated (it was a first-gen Leaf thing; the first gen was only made 2010-2017).
ianburrell 32 days ago [-]
Nissan Leaf has 2nd generation that is supposed to have fixed the battery degradation.
nunez 32 days ago [-]
Still sad about this. The Bolt is an incredible EV that's perfect for its price point.
Isn’t that including tax breaks? Yes after checking the cheapest is $42k the advertised price includes 7500 tax break and 5000 in gas savings.
drawkward 32 days ago [-]
Yes; Elon receives welfare.
cladopa 32 days ago [-]
Subsidies. Basically all savers in China that have money in the bank have to pay for development of what the central Government considers a priority, like steel and aluminium production, solar panels or EV vehicles, or chip manufacturing.
Aluminium and steel costs significantly less in China than the rest of the world, but they now face significant problems because of overcapacity. There are so much factories built and so small demand companies can not survive without help from the Government. They were build thanks to cheap loans from the Government.
So the Government made an investment that is not making money, so basically is a transfer of wealth from bank savers account to industry.
This is also applied in the US and EU, let's remember interest rates below inflation, "Quantitative Easing" and other transfers of wealth the central banks do in the West.
Tesla was also subsidised.
fy20 32 days ago [-]
> There are so much factories built and so small demand companies can not survive without help from the Government. They were build thanks to cheap loans from the Government.
It feels like this is true for any older Western country like Germany or the UK too. Why exactly have China been successful in reducing costs?
China boasts a complete industrial chain and the best logistics infrastructure. If you want to engage in industrial production, you can find the most suppliers here, who can provide you with the parts you need at the fastest speed and lowest logistics cost.
Not to mention the largest number of educated workers, who won't leave marijuana in the products you send to customers.
These are all factors that can actually reduce costs, which cannot be achieved solely by subsidies.
insane_dreamer 32 days ago [-]
The subsidies in China have been significantly larger.
Besides that, EVs in the US are targeting a different market segment. It's for people who would be buying a $40K SUV, not those buying a $20K Corolla.
michpoch 32 days ago [-]
> Why exactly have China been successful in reducing costs?
Reducing price != reducing cost
42772827 32 days ago [-]
Labor costs and a manufacturing industry that isn’t hyperfinancialized by the government
plantwallshoe 32 days ago [-]
There are tons of used Leafs online for under 8k USD that still have a range of 60-100 miles. Perfect around town car but the price seems to reflect that no one wants one.
hedora 32 days ago [-]
Early Leafs ate batteries, so the really cheap used ones often need a potentially unavailable replacement battery.
China has heavily subsidized EV production in order to become a leader in that area (particularly battery production). Same thing they did with solar panels.
reaperducer 32 days ago [-]
It seems like if there was a $15-$20k EV in the US market, it would be a no-brainer "around town" second car.
Every few months Electrek publishes a list of EVs that can be leased in the United States for under $200/month. Sometimes they're as cheap as $99 or even $0/month, depending on your state's incentives.
michpoch 32 days ago [-]
Yes, and that list includes almost no cars under $200 a month. Just go and check it.
They’re not including the downpayment.
xyst 32 days ago [-]
American companies have been using the excuse of “more technology/screens” to justify the higher price points. Then using vague “inflation”/“pandemic”/“supply chain issues” to justify higher prices.
However as we witnessed during the pandemic, manufacturers of goods tend to increase the cost of the goods despite minimal increase in supply chain, cost of materials or labor. It’s all for maximizing profit and they were “testing” the market to reap massive profits.
With no competition, they (collectively as an industry) felt no need to decrease prices or offer cheaper vehicle options.
I also suspect abuse of CAFE exceptions (ie, “light duty trucks”) is the second leading cause of the death of affordable vehicles.
gibolt 32 days ago [-]
BYD also charges ~double the price in other markets, including Mexico, compared to China. That makes it very close to a base Model 3, for much less car.
ggm 32 days ago [-]
This seems like doing a lot of +++ on one side and --- on the other, to say "its cheaper, for a cheaper car"
1) it's not as expensive as a model 3 in mexico
2) it's not as much lower end, when it comes to what drivers want, noting FSD is not actually on anyones radar, or "free" with the low end models
3) it's cheaper by a margin most people on rational incomes close to average would say is a LOT of money.
gibolt 31 days ago [-]
1) It is about 30% more, rather than 150% more, as suggested here. Very different.
2) Agreed, that it is a car for much cheaper. However, it will likely not last as long. Excluding FSD, Autopilot is free and a better comparison.
3) Again, simply pointing out the discrepancy in claimed cost vs actual.
mikl 32 days ago [-]
One might hope it’ll cause Tesla to drop the price for their “full” self-driving too. $8'000 for a software feature is just bonkers. Especially in Europe, where there’s no subscription option, so you can’t even try it without paying the full price first, and many of the fancier features are not supported here. Even regular auto-pilot is not very reliable for me, it often fails to recognize city limits signs, and fairly often panic brakes because it misinterprets cars driving on the other side of the road as being on collision course.
yakz 32 days ago [-]
It’s $8000 because it doesn’t work and it comes with free hardware upgrades until it works (for some definition of ‘works’ but currently it breaks often enough and badly enough that you’d have to be dishonest to say it works without a huge collection of qualifying footnotes attached to the statement)
highfrequency 32 days ago [-]
You can bet that the 100% tariff on BYD cars in the US isn’t going anywhere with Musk so influential in the government. A $14k EV would be a huge threat to Tesla’s market cap.
hnburnsy 32 days ago [-]
>You can bet that the 100% tariff on BYD cars in the US isn’t going anywhere with Musk...
>Musk opposes US tariffs on Chinese electric cars. "In fact, I was surprised when they were announced. Things that inhibit freedom of exchange or distort the market are not good," Mr Musk said on Thursday. “Tesla competes quite well in the market in China with no tariffs and no deferential support. I’m in favour of no tariffs," he added.
hedora 32 days ago [-]
Very little of what this administration says matches their actions.
suraci 32 days ago [-]
it really depends on the market share of tesla in china
>Tesla TSLA has joined BMW and several Chinese manufacturers in challenging EU tariffs on China-made electric vehicles at the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU), per a court filing.
woodruffw 32 days ago [-]
That article is about EU tariffs, not US tariffs. Notably the EU tariffs affect him; that's why he's opposed to them.
bagels 32 days ago [-]
Musk says a lot of things that are not true. Hard to know if that was a serious take.
filoeleven 32 days ago [-]
> 23 May, 2024
hnburnsy 32 days ago [-]
No recent evidence of Musk's position, but Tesla just last month opposed China tariffs in the EU.
senordevnyc 32 days ago [-]
Musk seems significantly more unhinged today than he did nine months ago.
notatoad 32 days ago [-]
even if the tariff did disappear, i can't imagine BYD is going to be too eager to get into the US market. there's plenty of other places to sell cars.
asadotzler 32 days ago [-]
They will eventually build in Mexico (or the US South) and we'll get them here.
SauciestGNU 32 days ago [-]
I think rest of world will gobble these up though, especially with retaliatory tariffs or straight up import bans on Teslas on the table from aggrieved trading partners.
IncreasePosts 32 days ago [-]
I'm just waiting for the inevitable fallout that seems to come with most trump advisors to buy BYD stock.
modeless 32 days ago [-]
Let's not blame the current administration for tariffs that Biden imposed.
hathawsh 32 days ago [-]
OTOH, theoretically, could we produce a decently priced EV with US materials only? If we go all-in on automation, could one factory worker do the job that many do today, thereby reducing costs? If we can head in that direction, I think Elon wants to compete in that kind of market, not bog it down with regulation.
callc 32 days ago [-]
Sure. Price every good from not-USA 1000x and let’s see what happens.
I thought the republicans were in favor of a free market, but it seems more like those with power don’t mind putting some weight on their side of the scale, since they own the scale and the bank.
> I think Elon wants to compete in that kind of market, not bog it down with regulation
Be careful about any phrase that starts with “I think {person} wants to…” especially if person is rich/powerful. Judge people based on their actions, not the facade they put on.
hedora 32 days ago [-]
We already know what will happen. The US goods will be priced to match the price of foreign goods with tariffs and zero money will be spent investing in future production capacity in the US.
We know this will happen because it is what always happens when countries impose punitive tariffs on foreign goods. Later, the domestic industry collapses and the tariffs are lifted.
hn_acc1 32 days ago [-]
> I think Elon wants to compete in that kind of market, not bog it down with regulation.
Exactly what market is that? Where Tesla has 0 responsibility for any issues / defects / deaths-from-FSD? Sure, that market he wants to play in - it has only upside for him.
The one where he has to compete on price/features/whatever, and he can't make rude comments or cut people off who he doesn't like? Please pass the bong..
drawkward 32 days ago [-]
Elon is a direct beneficiary of government subsidies on EVs. He wants regulations if it benefits his profitability.
xyst 32 days ago [-]
To me, tariffs from the orange man are political theater and appeal to his base, and subsequently sell it via media.
What’s to stop manufacturers of goods from shipping it from a country that is not China, laundering it through a different country. Paper work for container says, “imported from {non tariff restricted country}” at the ship yard.
Cheap Chinese goods still flood the market. Orange man gets to say he has been hard on China via tariff war.
atlintots 32 days ago [-]
In fact, the tariffs on BYD cars were imposed by the Biden administration.
filoeleven 32 days ago [-]
Yes, Biden increased by $18 billion the $300 billion tariffs that Trump first put in place.
> The new tariff rates – which range from 100% on electric vehicles, to 50% for solar components, to 25% for all other sectors – will take place over the next two years.
Yes, and this discussion is about electric vehicles in particular:
> Electric vehicles imported from China will see their tariffs more than quadrupled from 27.5% to 100%
not_a_bot_4sho 32 days ago [-]
Funny story: was visiting Chengdu and got to test drive a BYD. The sales rep was super energetic and proud of how superior to Tesla their tech was.
And I was eating it up until she turned on self-driving and we crashed into a parked car.
Still a really great EV car at a great price. But I'm not ready for any car's self-driving after that...
rsynnott 31 days ago [-]
> And I was eating it up until she turned on self-driving and we crashed into a parked car.
I mean, I don't see your problem; she was simply demonstrating that it had the same capability to randomly crash into things as Tesla's solution! That's what people _like_ about the Tesla one; keeps things interesting.
iamthemonster 32 days ago [-]
Yeah I drive a BYD Atto 3 and it's a great car but the lane assist and adaptive cruise control lets it down significantly. I won't be getting excited about self driving this decade.
Like the article says, Many Tesla owners are also looking to offload or sell them to avoid any appearance of endorsing Musk or his views or being linked to them in any way.
Many awkward conversations are being had with Tesla owners around Musk and alot of them don't feel comfortable owning the cars anymore.
This BYD feature, while BYD is not a perfect company themselves, will cause further issues for Tesla.
nunez 32 days ago [-]
Tesla just got Deepseeked. Amazing.
I love FSD. I use it daily. It's replaced a lot of driving for me. This should 100% be available to everyone for free. It will significantly improve safety once edge cases are worked out.
tw04 32 days ago [-]
Edge cases like snow and rain? If you live in Southern California it seems like it will replace humans everywhere. If you live anywhere with seasons, you wonder when they’re going to figure out cameras don’t work in heavy rain or with a layer of salt caking the lens.
glitch003 31 days ago [-]
surprisingly, it works excellent in rain. i was on the highway in florida in a torrential downpour, the kind where everyone turns their flashers on and goes 25mph. many people pulled over to wait it out. FSD handled it perfectly even though i could barely see. it did show a warning that it might be degraded due to weather, but there was no change in performance.
i can't speak for snow tho.
nunez 31 days ago [-]
It works amazingly in rain here in Houston.
0xcoffee 32 days ago [-]
>BYD has deployed three different versions of the “God’s Eye” ADAS across its line-up. All three offer automated parking and lane-keeping features, with the basic version – available on models costing up to 219,800 yuan ($30,078.69) – enabling autonomous driving on highways. The driver must keep their hands on the wheel and take control when necessary.
>Two higher-end versions will be installed on more expensive BYD-branded cars and its premium Denza and Yangwang brands. These will enable a car to drive autonomously — though also under human supervision — in more complex urban traffic.
The base version is self driving as in lane assist. It will not change lanes for you or 'self drive' to your destination.
I agree with BYD that these are great safety features and give them props for not gating safety behind a paywall.
tim333 31 days ago [-]
Here's a video of the self driving in action. The commentary is in Korean but you can still see it drives ok in some tricky situations. There was one human intervention in 30 mins driving. Filmed in China. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjl3r3D2tG4&t=340s
jongjong 32 days ago [-]
Surely they cannot sell at this price without government subsidies (direct or indirect)?
This possibility paints a frightening picture of the power of government in the global marketplace. The government of any large country can selectively choose to monopolize any specific industry and wipe out all competitors in other countries via subsidies.
It's not a fair playing field for market participants. It makes the whole environment completely unpredictable and dominated by the whims of hundreds of different governments. It promotes government scheming over raw productive capabilities of workers and entrepreneurs; it throws decentralized economic efficiency under the bus in favor of monopolistic, centralized government-oriented strategies.
In such environment, I can understand why tariffs are essential. You can't have a market where participants are playing by different rules of different countries. Also, you can't expect market participants to familiarize themselves with the (possibly secret) policies of hundreds of different governments or be forced to abandon their entire industry in their own country because they happen to be skilled in an industry which is not propped up in their own country as it is in some other foreign country.
Our system is so incredibly asymmetric, right down to the monetary layer. People ought to refuse to participate at all.
BTW, it's not only China which plays these games; you could also say this about US tech/software industry.
fy20 32 days ago [-]
Tarrifs don't really help in this situation though. The actions of large governments do not affect just themselves, it's affect other countries too. The affects are much greater than just where to get the cheapest steel. Smart governments can use that to their advantage.
If you look at it from a big picture, one of the major winners of the Ukraine war has been the USA oil and gas industry, as Europe now imports almost 3x the amount of LNG it did before the war from USA [0].
The USA military complex is also doing pretty well, as governments in Europe are allocating more towards defense as Russia seems like a much riskier neighbour than it was 5 years ago.
US EV makers have received as much or more in subsidies than Chinese makers in the last 5 years.
32 days ago [-]
enslavedrobot 31 days ago [-]
I'd be interested to know what inference hardware they are using. Some of their cars are so cheap the inference hardware would cost a good percentage of the cost of the car....
hulitu 31 days ago [-]
> BYD to offer Tesla-like self-driving tech in all models for free
Tesla like? Doesn't Tesla require that you keep your hands on the wheel ?
skeeter2020 32 days ago [-]
No hubris whatsoever calling your tech "god's eye" - in a country that's officially an atheist state!
fspeech 32 days ago [-]
That's due to the translation. The original term 天神 comes from the polytheistic Chinese folk religion so it doesn't have the same connotation.
uptownfunk 32 days ago [-]
So what is tslas new story going to be at earnings.
slaw 32 days ago [-]
T-800 instead of Optimus.
1270018080 32 days ago [-]
I wish America was a free market economy that embraced capitalism. The American consumer is getting screwed over and forced to pay more for an inferior product because the government wants to protect the local auto cartel.
gabruoy 32 days ago [-]
If both China and the US were a free market that didn't subsidize electric car production and construction, neither country would have any electric car manufacturers.
rsynnott 31 days ago [-]
I mean, I suppose it comes down to "define free market". No market is entirely free, but it's totally conceivable that you could have a non-protectionist market which still subsidises market segments seen as desirable. That is generally ~how the US and EU markets writ large have worked for the past few decades, say (though cars are a bit of a special case, and the US in particular has always been quite keen on protectionism there.)
nextworddev 32 days ago [-]
Would be more intriguing if American companies e.g. Facebook, Tesla were also allowed in China.
1270018080 32 days ago [-]
I don't care. I just feel for the average American who is looking to buy a car and getting screwed over by corruption.
seanmcdirmid 32 days ago [-]
If you bought a car in a big Chinese cities, you might complain about having to win in a lottery (Beijing) or pay in an auction (Shanghai) just to have the right to buy one. And even after that, you aren't allowed to drive your car everyday of the week.
Cars in America are still relatively cheap to buy and operate by world standards. They aren't much cheaper in China (and can become very expensive for non-econo luxury models), and you can face a lot of restrictions on when you can use them.
dalyons 32 days ago [-]
as i understand there are no day restrictions for EVs.
seanmcdirmid 32 days ago [-]
> Many Chinese cities implement driving restrictions based on the last digit of a car's license plate, but EVs are typically exempt from this rule.
I didn't know that, good point! You would already want to get an EV in Beijing since the license lottery has a separate allotment for them, but even then you might not win a license (not sure what the odds are right now, it depends on what they are selling). I assume SH is the same.
atlintots 32 days ago [-]
Well, I'm not living in China, so I don't know what your point is.
seanmcdirmid 32 days ago [-]
And just be glad that you aren't, if you like the free market, it really isn't the place for you.
cute_boi 32 days ago [-]
they are allowed if they followed rules like other chinese website.
32 days ago [-]
buzzerbetrayed 32 days ago [-]
You have it nearly completely backwards. China is screwing over the world by subsidizing their car exports. No car company can compete unless their government also subsidizes.
suraci 32 days ago [-]
there's no such thing like a free market economy that embraced capitalism in history
there're only certain stages of economy had advantages in foreign trade so they claim themself as 'free market' and try to force others accept this 'free market'
nova22033 32 days ago [-]
"Tesla-like" meaning not really "Full" self driving?
gregschlom 32 days ago [-]
A bit surprised to learn that their product is called "God's eyes", given that this is a Chinese company - I thought religion was frowned upon in Communist China. Am I missing something?
zozbot234 32 days ago [-]
The really nice thing about this is that every single accident that the system gets into will have to be classed as an "Act of God".
GuB-42 32 days ago [-]
You don't have to believe in god to call your product "god's eyes" anymore than you have to believe in dragons to use the word "dragon".
If anything, I would consider using the word "god" in a commercial tech product to be disrespectful to an actual believer.
harry8 32 days ago [-]
The religious are more likely to object to this name. One can imagine a different name in Saudi, for example.
Among atheists one would think it would no more troubling than referencing Legolas in a name. [1]
In China I suspect they'd object to "Mao's Eyes" as a name for this.
[1] Many atheists may register an objection on the grounds of upsetting others in the community.
Terr_ 32 days ago [-]
Mysticism in general is fine, you just can't be a political rival.
Plus, like in English, there are a ton of words people use more for the poetic impressiveness than because they're specifically asserting a supernatural power.
gjsman-1000 32 days ago [-]
All religions not approved by the party are frowned upon in China.
Also, when a religion refuses to gain approval, the party quite literally hard forks it. Catholic? No, you have the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association; which was only recently tentatively reconciled after about 60 years of schism (though it’s still a very uneasy peace).
Barrin92 32 days ago [-]
>Am I missing something?
I mean for one that religion isn't frowned upon and that it's just a marketing slogan, but also if you want to actually look at it, the Chinese phrase used by BYD is: 天神之眼, what they've in English translated to "God" is, in Chinese "Tian" (Heaven) a very common concept you have in Taoism or Confucianism or pretty much any Chinese mythology. You might have come across the phrase Tianxia (天下) "under heaven". But for an Anglophone audience "God" is probably catchier.
I think it literally means god in Chinese. There are various ways to get god out sky (like laotian, tianna, etc...).
fspeech 32 days ago [-]
In a polytheistic context the invocation is much less severe, roughly equivalent to Apollo's Eyes or Zeus's Eyes.
rsynnott 31 days ago [-]
But hopefully not Odin's Eye.
32 days ago [-]
rsynnott 31 days ago [-]
There's a Chinese car called Ora Good Cat or Ora Funky Cat, depending on market (sadly, someone who had at least some vague idea of how marketing worked got involved and it is now called "Ora O3" in Europe). It is generally understood that it is not in fact a cat, good, funky or otherwise.
32 days ago [-]
sympil 32 days ago [-]
Obviously there are people who don’t believe in god who use that word in phrases to convey a certain sense or meaning.
cozzyd 32 days ago [-]
Atheists can't iddqd
sympil 32 days ago [-]
Had to look tht up. Nice reference!
renewiltord 32 days ago [-]
The original branding "Jesus, take the wheel" apparently had an awareness issue in China.
amazingamazing 32 days ago [-]
> I thought religion was frowned upon in Communist China. Am I missing something?
Especially point #8, "The ruling Chinese Communist Party promotes atheism and discourages citizens from practicing religion"
amazingamazing 32 days ago [-]
I see. There’s not much to refute, the country doesn’t really promote so much organized religion. You should go to Beijing though, I definitely saw Christians there, and Chinese culture also has many elements of Taoism embedded even if they’re generally atheist.
deadfoxygrandpa 32 days ago [-]
you can "refute" this just by going to china. you will see buddhist temples, monks, christian churches and congregations, mosques, muslim people, halal restaurants etc literally all over the place. i don't think there's really anything to "refute" here
suraci 32 days ago [-]
Usually, you can tell whether an article has ideological and political biases by looking at its accompanying pictures. Recognizing this helps you critically engage with your sources.
as for your question
> "The ruling Chinese Communist Party promotes atheism and discourages citizens from practicing religion"
communisim is a materialism ideology, so communists should not practice religion, CPC members could be discharge if they do so
there's no limits for non-CPC citizens abt this, "religion freedom should be respected" is written in the constitution
this is not a question for anyone in China or have traveled in China, because if you were there you'll see how many people in temples there at weekends
yes. what you're missing is religion isn't frowned upon in china. nobody cares if you call something "god's eye" and although most people are atheist, there's still a ton of people practicing many different religions right out in the open and its not against the rules
Despegar 32 days ago [-]
Tesla would be fucked without tariffs.
xp84 32 days ago [-]
Would you want for all cars to be made in China, the way all computers and smartphones are? I can't imagine any other outcome.
nimos 32 days ago [-]
Instead lets have them made in a place that has threatened to take over ~4 sovereign nations in the past three weeks? Yeah I'll take the 1/2 price cars thanks.
xp84 32 days ago [-]
Can you in any way separate in your mind the idea of the USA as a nation of 300,000,000 people, who need jobs and who all benefit from having safe and good quality cars, from the trolling actions of a few politicians?
With statements like yours, it feels like the left is rooting for the most catastrophic outcomes possible for that whole country, just to spite Trump. Even though we'd all lose and Trump wouldn't be affected either way.
nimos 32 days ago [-]
Well there are another 7.6 billion people on this planet many of whom are already feeling the consequences of the "trolling actions of a few politicians".
I'm not American or a "leftist" for reference. I have no ill will towards the American people, neither the Chinese or any other. Governments on the other hand.... But regardless if I can buy a car for 1/2 the cost from one belligerent major power over another. Yeah - I'll take the half price car.
xp84 31 days ago [-]
Pardon my assumption -- if you're not in America, America's tariffs on their imports don't impact availability of cheap Chinese cars (should you want to trust them).
seanmcdirmid 32 days ago [-]
You are assuming that all posters on HN are American? An Australian, for example, doesn't care if their car is made in china or not, they are taking the cheaper car! Many countries don't have local auto producers, and they are just going to take the best deal, and that's going to be Chinese.
> With statements like yours, it feels like the left is rooting for the most catastrophic outcomes possible for that whole country, just to spite Trump. Even though we'd all lose and Trump wouldn't be affected either way.
This only makes sense if the poster is American though right? Otherwise, they are just being pragmatic.
xp84 31 days ago [-]
I assumed they were American only because they seemed to have an opinion on the import tax America charges on BYD cars. If they live anywhere else, America's import taxes don't impact them.
seanmcdirmid 31 days ago [-]
I don’t see that anywhere in the comment hierarchy, but that would make sense. However, I think there is a misunderstanding: parent was talking about not wanting to depend on cars made in the USA, they nowhere seem to imply that they are in the USA. If you aren’t in the USA, the USA’s agenda right now (take over a bunch of non-USA territory) is not more appealing than china’s (sell cheap EVs, maybe take Taiwan someday). Trump’s unpopularity abroad doesn’t help matters, I wouldn’t be surprised if Trump threatens them and they respond by signing free trade deals with China.
xp84 30 days ago [-]
I asked "would you want all cars to be made in China" (meaning all cars bought in America) because American-built cars built by people who are paid nontrivial wages would not be competitive in America with those built by very low cost Chinese labor if America lets Chinese cars in. None of this impacts anyone else though.
If you really think Trump is going to try to literally take territory though, you've really been trolled. He has said all kinds of ridiculous shit in his 'political career.' That's his one signature thing.
porphyra 32 days ago [-]
I don't mind having all my computers and smartphones made in China. And I didn't mind when both cars and electronics were made in Japan.
sockaddr 32 days ago [-]
You consider technological/economic dominance by Japan or China to be equivalent threat classes?
KerrAvon 32 days ago [-]
What's your alternative to dominance by China? Dominance by Elon Musk? American industry has been fucking the dog since the 1980's. This is what we deserve.
xp84 32 days ago [-]
> This is what we deserve.
This attitude is why Trump won. A statement like that sounds like you've stopped trying to make anything better, or to articulate a competing plan and convince voters to support it.
So, in this way, the self-loathing defeatism is partly responsible for people like Trump gaining more power.
rangestransform 32 days ago [-]
This is what the UAW deserves anyways for throwing around their weight to keep the US in the dark ages of EVs
xp84 31 days ago [-]
Is it the UAW who has forced the automakers to make primarily those high-profit trucks, and to only design terrible EVs?
In my opinion the reason why we're in the dark ages of EVs is that a majority of Americans have range anxiety so our EVs have to weigh a lot and cost a lot to have 250 mile batteries, whereas everywhere else you can buy a car with an 80 mile range for a price poor people can actually afford.
Note - the range anxiety is both because of our car-centric (sub)urban design encouraging lifestyles where you drive 100 miles a day, and because of how a large number of urban dwellers and even suburban non-rich have no garages to do home charging. (And it's objectively far worse to own an EV for anyone who can't charge it at home.) All of this causes people to refuse to buy cars with say, 75-100 miles of range unless they're hybrids.
xp84 32 days ago [-]
Most of the pro-CCP ideologues I see these days have a horrifyingly naïve sense of equivalence between China and any given other country (or are just sockpuppets of the CCP but I doubt there are many of those on HN).
The same party that happily ran over peaceful protestors with tanks, and never even so much as apologized for it, is still in power almost 40 years later. They openly put their people in prison just for criticizing the Party.
People compare the CCP to Western countries' misdeeds against their citizens when there's not even a comparison. For instance, when the US illegally wiretapped on the AT&T and Verizon networks to slurp up all the call data they wanted, they didn't actually use that data to imprison citizens for their speech, even ones who said things like "Bush is a war criminal." China both does the privacy invasion itself, and quite openly uses anything they can uncover to persecute anyone they deem a threat to their power.
slt2021 32 days ago [-]
>>persecute anyone they deem a threat to their power
USA does this as well, its just critique of government by a single person is not a credible threat to the US government. Mind you, all these "freedom fighters" ended up being financed by the USAID, so literally were foreign agents.
Whistleblowers get the whole book thrown at them, Snowden and Assange got nearly killed by CIA, Iraq files whistleblowers get book thrown at them.
USA is just as bad empire as China, and probably even worse, because of the millions of murdered innocent people over the decades of forever wars.
China has no such track record
xp84 31 days ago [-]
You've cited a small number of people including radicals like Assange who believe basically all information should be public, no matter the possible damage. That doesn't establish a pattern like the many political prisoners China has and continues to imprison.
> millions of murdered innocent people [...] China has no such track record
No, China, since becoming Communist, has specialized more in murdering their own citizens.
Anyway, thanks for providing a great exhibit of exactly what I was talking about: either CCP propaganda, or hopelessly naïve Westerner bent on believing in these two nations' moral equivalency. This is the same level of honest discourse we'll see heavily promoted on TikTok when China invades Taiwan in a few months or years, saying "China and the US are the same, so who cares if they take over a democracy by force."
slt2021 31 days ago [-]
China had civil war and independence war after centuries of foreign occupation.
Do you also think US civil war was Americans genociding own citizens?
I dont care what China does to chinese, I care more about what America does to other countries like in the middle east or Afghanistan
kevin_thibedeau 32 days ago [-]
Japan hit its peak before surveillance capitalism became pervasive. They also categorically fail at developing complex software. The Chinese won't make that mistake.
loloquwowndueo 32 days ago [-]
That’s how the free market works, right?
Dig1t 32 days ago [-]
Yes it certainly is.
You can see the effects of the free market in many industries which have been decimated by globalization.
We used to be able to get a manufacturing job which would provide for a family, but decided it was okay to allow big corps to use slave labor on the other side of the planet and just ship everything across the world (not great for carbon emissions). Just look at the rust belt.
It’s not a bad idea to say that we should have the free market stop at our border. Other countries don’t play by the same rules that we do and can even have entire industries propped up by a foreign government in order to take up market share.
32 days ago [-]
conception 32 days ago [-]
We are the richest nation on the planet. The reason the rust belt exists is because we decided it was better to have the most billionaires than to invest and care for our people. It’s entirely possible to help raise other countries out of poverty, which globalism has, and take care of your people. We just didn’t.
Dig1t 32 days ago [-]
I'm not sure what you mean by "care for our own people". I would say that providing an abundance of meaningful work that can feed a family is one of the best ways we can care for our own people. We have unions and high wages, and having good paying jobs for people who don't want to or can't afford to attend University means that people from all walks of life can have some prosperity.
Removing industry from an area brings nothing but misery to the people who live there. Are you suggesting that some sort of communism should have been implemented in the rust belt where we give these people free money or something?
The Chinese market is way larger than the US one, they have everything they need to lift themselves out of poverty by building things for themselves. The US became the richest country in the world by building everything here and reaping the rewards with greatly increased prosperity.
There is no reason to send all our good paying jobs to the other side of the world, and ship all goods across literally the entire planet, the process of which emits and insane amount of C02, just so that the owners of mega corporations can make a few extra dollars per unit.
sergiotapia 32 days ago [-]
has to be both ways for that to work. china can't just do whatever and tariff american companies to hell, right?
slt2021 32 days ago [-]
Tesla shanghai exists
GM also has factories in China
tariff concerns should be discussed via WTO, not unilateral sanctions.
otherwise all this "rules based order" is not worth paper it is written on
SauciestGNU 32 days ago [-]
The "rules based order" is just an American invention to give our government something to talk about besides international law, which the US has basically always ignored.
slt2021 32 days ago [-]
no, you cannot enforce rules based order on the whole world when it suits you (to force everyone use USD for reserves and global trade, allowing USA to borrow unlimited money for free and export inflation to entire world), but the moment it doesnt suit you - just abandon it.
why would anyone trust usa's word if any agreement/word/promise can be torn unilaterally?
macintux 32 days ago [-]
> why would anyone trust usa's word if any agreement/word/promise can be torn unilaterally?
I suspect we're going to see the answer to that question play out over the next several years.
SauciestGNU 32 days ago [-]
I agree with you, I'm trying to add color to the situation by pointing out that America has benefited from this invention stemming from the conditions of pax americana where the alternative is international law via the UN and ICC and other institutions that are perhaps more independent than the US would like.
rsynnott 31 days ago [-]
> china can't just do whatever and tariff american companies to hell, right?
In general, the US would introduce retaliatory tariffs in that scenario; the game theory of the situation basically requires that.
Despite popular belief, the CCP is also not actually completely immune to public discontent (it often seems to be really quite scared of it), and would likely be willing to kick off a major trade war, as it would cause price increases.
tokioyoyo 32 days ago [-]
Even if we consider "China is funding the companies to no end" argument... well, frankly, I wish US would do the same. It is pretty damn cool to see incredible technological progress in huge scale.
rtsil 32 days ago [-]
The various incentives, tax rebates and ZEV credits that Tesla (and other EV manufacturers) benefited and still benefit from are also government funding, so the US already do the same.
tokioyoyo 32 days ago [-]
I think US does it in a very small scale, compared to China, and their ideological missions.
rsynnott 31 days ago [-]
This _hasn't_ happened in Europe, which has lower tariff barriers on Chinese cars. BYD has about 15-20% of the EV market, as do VW, Stelantis, Tesla, Hyundai and BMW (unlike the US or China the European market doesn't have one clearly dominant player in EVs); no other Chinese manufacturer really moves the needle (though MG (SAIC) is regionally popular).
cute_boi 32 days ago [-]
Yes, if it means I would have to buy car that costs an arms and a leg like tesla.
tayo42 32 days ago [-]
There's different cars for different needs. F150 is the best selling vehicle in the US even though there are cheaper pick ups and cars in general.
There is alot if variety for cars. The US market can't be the only market keeping every European and Asian car manufacturer in business.
j7ake 32 days ago [-]
Companies shouldn’t be taking handouts from the US government.
Let capitalism dictate where the cars get made. It is the American way.
slt2021 32 days ago [-]
What is so special about EV cars?
its just an appliance to move from point A to point B, even the electric motor inside EV is from household appliances like washer/dryer.
the question should be: Should American consumers be allowed to drive green environmentally friendly cars for $10k or should they be forced to shell out $50k (+interest) to billionaire elon musk
cpursley 32 days ago [-]
Tesla is not the only American company making $50k plus EVs. And China even makes some wild $100k plus models.
slt2021 32 days ago [-]
Does Tesla or any American company make $10k EVs? with the same features like tesla model 3 ?
cpursley 31 days ago [-]
No Chinese company makes $10k EVs with Tesla level quality, performance and safety.
The Mi SU7, a pretty competitive EV with Model 3, starts at around $30k (still a pretty decent price).
Irrespective of what country, and your belief/disbelief in the threat level, you have to see that a highly internet-reliant device that would bring much of the country anywhere (thanks to car-centric infrastructure) would be a perfect target for a hostile nation, no? With one click you cripple the workforce. Again, speaking nothing of which country is or is not hostile.
slt2021 32 days ago [-]
how would that car get access to Internet, if wireless providers are controlled by the USA ?
Verizon, ATT, Tmobile and their APNs are controlled by the FCC, and any regulation can force vehicle traffic to be isolated if there is credible threat.
but, why would BYD or other nation sabotage its own future profits by bricking cars?? it doesn't make sense.
if I sell you gadget, I would never brick it, cause I am going to lose all future profits
sodality2 32 days ago [-]
> how would that car get access to Internet, if wireless providers are controlled by the USA ?
> Verizon, ATT, Tmobile and their APNs are controlled by the FCC, and any regulation can force vehicle traffic to be isolated if there is credible threat.
This response would *not* be soon enough. One response from a server, and the car could be bricked forever, explode/short circuit causing a fire, self-drive into the nearest government building, etc. A car is a huge weapon, especially when remotely controlled. This software could be pre-installed from the factory, with commands injected via side channels. I could imagine a hundred ways to do this.
> but, why would BYD or other nation sabotage its own future profits by bricking cars?? it doesn't make sense.
I'm precluding this situation with a background level of hostility between nations... they don't care about maximizing profit, but maximizing damage. It would be a government stepping in forcing this.
slt2021 32 days ago [-]
its pure paranoia.
first of all, I as a consumer, mature enough to understand risks and carry them myself, I dont need no government to babysit and censor what I am allowed to buy.
second, you assume China will resort to bricking civilian cars, when they have better options like actual weapons. Bricked car can easily be towed away, there is no way China can cause damage.
the best way for China is to keep manufacturing cars and selling them to USA for $$$ - this will ensure the relationships are beneficial to China (mutual trade is better than military conflict)
sodality2 32 days ago [-]
> its pure paranoia. first of all, I as a consumer, mature enough to understand risks and carry them myself, I dont need no government to babysit and censor what I am allowed to buy.
You have the tools to reverse-engineer every single chip in your car to ensure they aren't backdoored?
> second, you assume China will resort to bricking civilian cars, when they have better options like actual weapons.
Again, my argument has nothing to do with China, I'm simply saying cars would be a great thing to weaponize. Much easier than smuggling a weapon into the US, you just sell a car to a consumer and you have functionally a remote-controllable bomb.
> Bricked car can easily be towed away, there is no way China can cause damage.
Not if it's driven away and used in an attack first. did you read my reply? You still haven't actually responded to my point that internet-connected cars would be an excellent weapon by a hostile nation.
slt2021 32 days ago [-]
I dont, but there are plenty indie hackers who would be happy to buy cheap $10k car and reverse engineer it.
Any backdoors would be easily detectable and preventable just by .... not connecting the car to the Internet, or folding connection to isolated VPN not accessible from the outside.
all vehicle traffic can be inspected and sinkholed with IoT firewall, if you really want it
sodality2 32 days ago [-]
Not when cellular or satellite chips are very well hidden... You might not even know about them, let alone have the ability or knowledge on how to stop it from connecting, force it through a VPN/firewall, etc. You already can't do that with desktop PC's thanks to things like Intel ME.
slt2021 32 days ago [-]
I would be concerned if US Space Force could not detect rogue low orbit satellites from adversaries that provide uplink to imported consumer vehicles
sodality2 32 days ago [-]
It could use any existing commercial service. Again, you could very feasibly set it up to be plausibly deniable until it's not.
hn_acc1 32 days ago [-]
All those telecom companies have also been infiltrated by China RECENTLY, and they don't even know how long or how badly, AIUI.
Good point though. My current cars drive just fine without internet - I would hope future cars would continue to do so, even if GPS doesn't work, can't find a charging station, etc. Otherwise, I'll be stuck with gas cars until the day they take my license..
slt2021 32 days ago [-]
they are using Cisco/Juniper/Arista equipment, so they are infiltrated by US companies mostly, especially NSA, FBI, and CIA backdoors
Despegar 32 days ago [-]
Yeah I don't care
almostgotcaught 32 days ago [-]
it's amazing to me when people on hn (supposed champions of meritocracy and innovation and free markets etc) are so scared of actual free trade. like what are you scared of? equilibration in wages? the only reason to be scared of that is because you're afraid of your purchasing power going down but that means of course your current purchasing power comes at the expense of someone else's. and if you don't buy that argument - "it's not a zero-sum game you communist!" - then you have nothing to be scared of (because your purchasing power will remain high) and you should support truly free trade.
joyeuse6701 32 days ago [-]
I think it’s obvious that free trade is good when it’s just a matter of competition between private citizens.
It is clearly problematic when it is weaponized to destroy a nation-state’s industrial output surreptitiously.
almostgotcaught 32 days ago [-]
> it is weaponized to destroy a nation-state’s industrial output surreptitiously
are we talking about the US or China or Canda or Mexico here? i can't keep track of who the "bad guys" are that are supposedly weaponizing and who the victims are.
c0nducktr 32 days ago [-]
Who destroyed a nation-states industrial output?
seanmcdirmid 32 days ago [-]
Tesla sells a lot of cars in China (made in China) and exports lots of cars it makes in China to countries like Australia.
mikl 32 days ago [-]
So would all the other western automakers. The lower wage- and energy costs in China would strangle them all.
outlace 32 days ago [-]
All American car companies would be
throwaway5752 32 days ago [-]
Tesla is fucked.
On 12/17/24 they hit a 52 week high around $490 per share. Since then, in less than two months, they have lost one third of their value. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA/
Musk has single-handedly alienated his core domestic buying demographic in favor of a group that, when polled, says they would not consider an EV at rates of around 70%.
EU markets in which TSLA was viable but contested are even worse.
This while Tesla's strongest international competitor is passing on units sold, executing better, and underpricing them.
As someone who has followed Tesla since the Model S, previously held Musk in some regard, and test drove a Model 3 I find this such an abject travesty of an outcome for what should have been a great US based global car maker and someone who had the potential to accomplish such good for the world with their incredible wealth and privilege.
tokioyoyo 32 days ago [-]
To my understanding, the ridiculous stock price and valuation have absolutely nothing to do with the car business. It's basically the potential hopes and dreams of what the leadership can do with direct access to US government.
sockaddr 32 days ago [-]
Yup. And don't buy the line that Elon made Tesla a success. They had the core tech and talent to build an EV (without all the other bullshit he added) before he came along. Given enough time they could have been something on their own too.
dlivingston 32 days ago [-]
This is most definitely not true. Tesla was barely more than an electric powertrain and battery combo when Musk took over. The first production Roadsters even reused the chassis from Porsche 911s (IIRC).
Other US competitors aren't at parity with Tesla or BYD. Nikola went bust. Legacy automakers turned out mediocre EVs. Rivian is the only true competitor, but they are a luxury brand and don't have Tesla's crown jewel (the Supercharger network).
sho_hn 32 days ago [-]
> Tesla was barely more than an electric powertrain and battery combo when Musk took over.
Musk also had zero experience or track record making cars when Musk took over, nor any hardware products of any kind, for that matter, or running a manufacturing org.
Occam's razor would indicate it's very improbably to credit success all to him.
hn_acc1 32 days ago [-]
It was a Lotus. I don't see how you can get that so badly wrong (they aren't even remotely similar) and claim to know the state of Tesla at that time very well.
amazingamazing 32 days ago [-]
> Given enough time they could have been something on their own too.
This is based off what? Couldn’t this be argued for literally any company?
werdnapk 32 days ago [-]
It's more the sanctions than the tariffs.
drawkward 32 days ago [-]
And without EV subsidies
dhdjruf 32 days ago [-]
[dead]
nu2ycombinator 32 days ago [-]
[flagged]
msikora 32 days ago [-]
Waymo literally drives around as a Taxi without a driver. Millions of miles and no major accidents.
With Tesla FSD there is another horror story every day
nu2ycombinator 32 days ago [-]
I used Waymo in SF 6 months and it pulled behind a parked car, thinking it is traffic waiting to turn left. Also Waymo drive feels like drive of a 90 year old non confident driver, where as Tesla's FSD is in another level, drives just like a taxi driver.
dlivingston 32 days ago [-]
I took a road trip over Christmas from Massachusetts to Florida and back, and used FSD on my Model Y the entire drive.
The number of times I had to manually disengage because it was doing something stupid / dangerous was... a lot. More than a dozen interventions, maybe two dozen.
testfrequency 32 days ago [-]
Absolutely not.
Waymo is so much more confident and reliable than FSD.
nu2ycombinator 32 days ago [-]
Disagree
testfrequency 32 days ago [-]
Remember to wear your seatbelt
datavirtue 32 days ago [-]
What next? Are they going to open source the self driving system? Commies.
anticensor 32 days ago [-]
Yes, why not? Open sourcing and standardising it across all Chinese manufacturers would be a logical next step.
c0nducktr 32 days ago [-]
My sarcasm detector isn't working on this one. Are you actually against open-sourcing of a self-driving system?
datavirtue 31 days ago [-]
You sarcasm detector, is indeed, not working. I saw it as the next logical step and thought of the reaction of the US government. You know, it falls in line with the whole DeepSeek thing. On some level Im glad it was downvoted but seriously?
xyst 32 days ago [-]
While I love hearing TSLA getting undercut and ripped apart by competition. I’m honestly curious as to how this company is able to do so - are they cutting quality of materials elsewhere? Safety concerns? Or just plain ole use of ~~slave~~ cheap labor? Or have the EU and US car manufacturers been ripping us off all along?
Perhaps this Chinese EV car is loaded up to the tits with surveillance technology and EV company is going to go behind your back and sell it to the highest bidder to make up the loss in sale of vehicle.
ponty_rick 32 days ago [-]
China has better manufacturing prowess than the USA. Their scale is astonishing and they have an incredible ecosystem of components, logistics and labor to make manufacturing hyperefficient. I'm sure the government helps them out too, but one shouldn't discount just how good they are at manufacturing.
ricardobeat 32 days ago [-]
Ultra-optimized manufacturing and supply chains, lower labour costs, lower material and transportation costs as everything is available next door; add twenty years of building up an auto industry with strong government support.
A lot of the chinese car brands are using European design expertise. Nio and Zeekr have a full 5-star Euro NCAP lineup, and even the small weird ones like the “Ora Funky Cat” are getting top safety marks.
programmertote 32 days ago [-]
Besides the US vs. China wage differences, it is easier to source things locally and iterate quickly. At least that is what I read as one of the advantages Chinese car manufacturers have.
locusm 32 days ago [-]
I went to an EV drive day here in Australia and drove around 25 models round a track for the day. The BYD Seal came out on top for me and many others.
Interior styling is so much better than Tesla as is fit & finish. The driving dynamics were neck & neck with Tesla and a few other high end cars.
BYD also make great batteries and use CATL I think in some models. I can see BYD being the dominant player in the not too distant future.
amazingamazing 32 days ago [-]
Chinese people are paid much less than Americans.
buzzerbetrayed 32 days ago [-]
Government subsidies. It isn't a fair playing field. You're essentially celebrating that the Chinese government is choosing for their car company to crush rather than the rest of the world's car companies. This isn't an example of being "ripped apart by competition". It's being ripped apart by a government.
darknavi 32 days ago [-]
Just remember: If the product is free, then you are the product.
This is true about Tesla FSD (which costs $$$$) too, but alas.
werdnapk 32 days ago [-]
Well if you bought the car, then it's not free.
Tostino 32 days ago [-]
The phrase "If the product is free, then you are the product" doesn't preclude a company from selling you something and also making you the product. They are capable of screwing you over twice.
harry8 32 days ago [-]
I bought apple product and yet they own and control access to me as a customer tolling at 30% of revenue.
So no, that wasn't free either.
fullstackwife 32 days ago [-]
it's more then that
suddenly some foreign company gains control over traffic in your country
think how it works with various Maps and their pathfinding algorithms, how often you see drivers blindly following Maps instructions? how often do you see drivers who are clueless without Maps?
the self driving / remote control will cause even more problems (+ some car manufacturers simply cannot achieve good quality)
tokioyoyo 32 days ago [-]
You can say the same about Mercedes, Tesla, Nissan and etc. Sure, you can make the "friendly state" argument, but then again, realpolitik is kinda funny nowadays.
In China maybe where it's 100k RMB (~roughly $14k). Everywhere else it's the double or at least $25k. It's £26k ($32k) in the UK. It's €32k ($33k) in Germany
Even in Mexico it's $26k (535k pesos) not $14k https://www.autocosmos.com.mx/catalogo/vigente/byd/dolphin
Still not US$14k, but not quite the $25k it is in other markets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull
https://mexico.as.com/motor/byd-dolphin-mini-que-tiene-de-es...
While still higher, I believe these are all very reasonable prices — perhaps just not as mind blowing. I’m optimistic for the future.
Sure, as reasonable as offers from Western manufacturers. You can get plenty of EVs for 30k USD.
Yes. Dacia Sprint. Plenty of it.
https://www.motorist.sg/coe-results https://bydcars.sg/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/BYD-Pricelist-...
>In Singapore, most people typically purchase new vehicles through dealers. Dealers will collect orders from customers and participate in the COE bidding on behalf of their customers.
>Supply and demand set the price for COE, which regulates demand. When COE prices are high, vehicle prices, as quoted by dealers, will have to increase, reducing demand. When COE prices are lower, dealers can afford to reduce prices if they want to, which will increase demand.
https://dollarsandsense.sg/guide-understanding-coe-bidding-s...
It looks like dealers handle getting the COE (which makes sense, since you couldn't drive the vehicle off the lot without one).
Subtract the $85,000 (SD) CAT A COE cost from the car price and it comes out to $80,000 (SD), or ~$60,000 USD.
I was ready to hate on it, but for the price and quality inside at least, wild. It also drove like any other car in the low/mid range that I’ve owned, wheel felt confident and had some heft to it (my preference).
My typical charging regime is: charge to 80%. Drive until the car has done 100km (down to ~50% capacity), then charge back up to 80%. If we go over 100km in a day the car drops below 50%. That can't be topped up in a single night, but it just means the charging accumulates over the next few nights until it's back to 80%. It works as long as the average is less than 100km per day and the peak is less than 300km per day.
Whilst it wouldn't do for a taxi, it's perfectly okay for the driving we do.
It actually worked pretty well for me. There were a couple of times I ended up "fast" (the Bolt is slow at DC charging) charging but very few in more than a year. The garage didn't have 240V power and we knew we were moving.
At the new house, I have a 240V 60A hardwired circuit for the EV charger so I can charge much faster, probably 25 miles of range per hour, maybe more. I haven't used a fast charger in probably six months.
It is a shock seeing what cold temperatures do to range in the Bolt. We have an Equinox EV and it seems to do better plus it has a longer range to start with.
In countries with most outlets at 220v it’s probably easier, plus usually less long distance driving than the US.
Obviously if you put a 240v, 50amp outlet in a garage you can ignore everything I just wrote.
There are also 30A circuits, usually for a dryer or stove. An electrician can set it up for a car, but it's not as easy as running an extension cord to a regular outlet.
Your 100km limit is also less than my wife's round trip commute to work, nevermind adding in running errands after or any of the regular travel we do to visit family, though at least some of that would be easy with upgraded charging.
Edit: to be more specific, most US outlets top out at 1.5kw to be safe, though they can usually be temporarily pushed to 1.8 for things like an electric kettle.
In most countries standard mains outlets are 220-240V, usually 10-15amp depending on country.
> Your 100km limit is also less than my wife's round trip commute to work, nevermind adding in running errands after or any of the regular travel we do to visit family
Even by US standards, that is somewhat unusually high.
With that said, ignoring 600 million people, including the single most car-centric cultures, seems a bit silly when talking about EV adoption challenges, no?
Additionally, a level 2 charger is just a high amperage wall socket plus some safety equipment.
[1] - https://www.solar.com/learn/solar-panel-cost/
That said, the Australia price seems particularly cheap; is that before grants and things? In Ireland, say, it’s typically 1.5-2eur/W before grant (grant is .7eur/W up to 2kW, .2eur/W up to 4kW, capped at 1800).
Things tend to be much closer than they are in the U.S.
Protectionism only
Throw in the tariffs and what not, and you lose out to other low end EV models.
Demand is also relative to price and US EVs are very expensive.
From the largest maker of BEVs.
The CEO is worried about how hostile the U.S. market might be for Chinese companies, not about low demand.
That's a lot more than the US, but that's not the point. 8% is plenty large enough to be sizable market.
EV credits going away will dampen that, but that will also be partly or even fully offset just by how fast that segment is growing.
A+ goalpost moving!
Now, the US is a big market, but even so, particularly with the US’s tariff barriers and unique consumer preferences (the average car in the US is a lot _bigger_ than elsewhere, and cars made for other markets do not sell well; for instance see the leaf), you can see why car makers would prefer to focus on the EU and China.
https://outofspecstudios.com/
I was floored by what they are producing in China. It is a shame that these cars are not reaching more of the world and raising the competitive bar. I get the government subsidy and lower labor costs issues, but the tariffs are retarding competition, propping up prices, and hurting consumers.
Without all the trade restrictions, you could buy a BYD EV for 10k. It's not the greatest car ever, but it would be a cool city car. Naw, better go and pay 40k for a worse American version.
Temu is getting basically banned. It's not enough I pay around 40% of my income on in taxes and healthcare insurance, I now much pay higher prices for the same stuff on Amazon.
American cars are expensive because Americans have been convinced buying big SUVs is AMERICAN and patriotic, and even the Americans who aren’t dumb enough to fall for that nonsense have to buy bigger cars because we’re in a car size arms race and it’s outright scary driving a normal hatchback around these massive Trucks masquerading as cars.
This has lowered demand for smaller and cheaper cars, giving auto manufacturers the perfect excuse to stop selling small cars in the U.S. especially since SUVs are just not profitable because they’re unsophisticated and yet super expensive.
No, you couldn’t. In Switzerland there are no EV trade restrictions and no, we do not have 10k BYDs. They cost roughly same as any other Western manufacturer.
Hell, Obama didn’t let the auto industry die back in 2008. Can you imagine Trump, who said there would be a "bloodbath" in the auto industry without him—allowing a $10K Chinese car into the U.S. market?
I'm curious which one lost more money, openai or byd
If before firing thousands upon thousands of government workers, they say eliminated all income taxes on your first 100k, it would do something for the middle class.
I really feel like US taxes are the worst of both worlds. They aren't much lower than in Europe where most(all?) countries have much cheaper if not free healthcare.
A system where getting fired usually cuts off your health insurance sounds like a dystopian novel. Serious health issues have a tendency to stop you from working.
No matter where in the world you go as a US citizen you still owe US taxes.
These are the arguments in favor of tariffs on Chinese autos, I understand they cause a disparity, and yes, IMO they are disproportionate.
Typing the three letters in “IMO” is most certainly easier than doing/documenting complex financial analysis.
It was a pretty bad and uncomfortable pattern to watch unfold online, and many people unfollowed their work because of how awful his (and honestly a few of the others who contribute) attitude(s) are.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chines...
They could probably build cars in one of those places that would be economically viable in the US if not for the tariffs, and would satisfy US labor sensibilities.
When states started offering incentives like big tax breaks to get auto makers to build factories outside of they often made those breaks contingent on the plants not being unionized. Those states also often had laws designed to make it much harder for unions to organize.
shameless UAW vote buying
Also the workers in that article are supposedly being paid very close to $7/hr, which is close to Brazil's median income.
>Intricate, invisible webs, just like this one, link some of the world’s largest food companies and most popular brands to jobs performed by U.S. prisoners nationwide, according to a sweeping two-year AP investigation into prison labor that tied hundreds of millions of dollars’ worth of agricultural products to goods sold on the open market.
https://apnews.com/article/prison-to-plate-inmate-labor-inve...
Not just whataboutism.
uyghur workers are same as other chinese workers, smart, hardworking, diligent, reliable, and they don't bring drugs to factory
btw, we are all forced labor in the 'world factory', forced to work overtime and earn little, to serve the empire and its golden 1b people
It seems like if there was a $15-$20k EV in the US market, it would be a no-brainer "around town" second car.
Instead we get $30k Model 3/Y's or $80k EV SUV/Vans.
Probably from Tesla.com. It lists the long range RWD cash price as $29920 (in my state) unless you notice the checked checkbox that says "Include est. incentives of $7,500 and 5-year gas savings of $<whatever> for <your_state>" and uncheck it.
$whatever is $5000 for my state.
This will be interesting to unpack, seeing what happens to Tesla in a marketing theory sense.
I predict that Chinese and us manufacturers will partner or rebadge Mexican or Canadian made Chinese EVs within a decade
Also, I believe the sodium ion battery has yet to impact the EV market. In theory a 200-300 mile car of sodium ion batteries should be 1/2 that of NCM drivetrain or less. That should enable a sub 10k car even in the us
Kinda missing the point that you get 50% more range in the Dolphin, plus a lot of additional niceties / tech stuff that is just not available in the Leaf.
I assume that the 25k EUR id.2 (replacement for the VW eUp, out early next year) will launch in the US, tho, and should be competitive with the Dolphin.
Nissan leaf: 240 km (149 miles) for the 40 kWh version and 341 km (212 miles) for the 62 kWh version.
BYD Dolphin: 340 km (211 mi) for the 45 Kwh version, 427 km (265 mi) for the 60kWh version. The cheapest 30 KwH version doesn't have a WLTP range that I can find (I don't think it is being exported outside of China anyways according to wiki).
Leaf is less, but it isn't 50% of the range.
https://electrek.co/2025/02/06/first-look-new-chevy-bolt-ev-...
Aluminium and steel costs significantly less in China than the rest of the world, but they now face significant problems because of overcapacity. There are so much factories built and so small demand companies can not survive without help from the Government. They were build thanks to cheap loans from the Government.
So the Government made an investment that is not making money, so basically is a transfer of wealth from bank savers account to industry.
This is also applied in the US and EU, let's remember interest rates below inflation, "Quantitative Easing" and other transfers of wealth the central banks do in the West.
Tesla was also subsidised.
It feels like this is true for any older Western country like Germany or the UK too. Why exactly have China been successful in reducing costs?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42942405
China boasts a complete industrial chain and the best logistics infrastructure. If you want to engage in industrial production, you can find the most suppliers here, who can provide you with the parts you need at the fastest speed and lowest logistics cost.
Not to mention the largest number of educated workers, who won't leave marijuana in the products you send to customers.
These are all factors that can actually reduce costs, which cannot be achieved solely by subsidies.
Besides that, EVs in the US are targeting a different market segment. It's for people who would be buying a $40K SUV, not those buying a $20K Corolla.
Reducing price != reducing cost
You can easily get a used EV in good working order for under $15K though: https://insideevs.com/features/715984/best-used-evs-on-a-bud...
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/cta?auto_make_model=niss...
Every few months Electrek publishes a list of EVs that can be leased in the United States for under $200/month. Sometimes they're as cheap as $99 or even $0/month, depending on your state's incentives.
They’re not including the downpayment.
However as we witnessed during the pandemic, manufacturers of goods tend to increase the cost of the goods despite minimal increase in supply chain, cost of materials or labor. It’s all for maximizing profit and they were “testing” the market to reap massive profits.
With no competition, they (collectively as an industry) felt no need to decrease prices or offer cheaper vehicle options.
I also suspect abuse of CAFE exceptions (ie, “light duty trucks”) is the second leading cause of the death of affordable vehicles.
1) it's not as expensive as a model 3 in mexico
2) it's not as much lower end, when it comes to what drivers want, noting FSD is not actually on anyones radar, or "free" with the low end models
3) it's cheaper by a margin most people on rational incomes close to average would say is a LOT of money.
2) Agreed, that it is a car for much cheaper. However, it will likely not last as long. Excluding FSD, Autopilot is free and a better comparison.
3) Again, simply pointing out the discrepancy in claimed cost vs actual.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cq55zd2xjreo
>Musk opposes US tariffs on Chinese electric cars. "In fact, I was surprised when they were announced. Things that inhibit freedom of exchange or distort the market are not good," Mr Musk said on Thursday. “Tesla competes quite well in the market in China with no tariffs and no deferential support. I’m in favour of no tariffs," he added.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas...
and it's changing
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/02/07/tesla-car-sales-in-china-fal...
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-joins-legal-battle-agai...
>Tesla TSLA has joined BMW and several Chinese manufacturers in challenging EU tariffs on China-made electric vehicles at the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU), per a court filing.
I thought the republicans were in favor of a free market, but it seems more like those with power don’t mind putting some weight on their side of the scale, since they own the scale and the bank.
> I think Elon wants to compete in that kind of market, not bog it down with regulation
Be careful about any phrase that starts with “I think {person} wants to…” especially if person is rich/powerful. Judge people based on their actions, not the facade they put on.
We know this will happen because it is what always happens when countries impose punitive tariffs on foreign goods. Later, the domestic industry collapses and the tariffs are lifted.
Exactly what market is that? Where Tesla has 0 responsibility for any issues / defects / deaths-from-FSD? Sure, that market he wants to play in - it has only upside for him.
The one where he has to compete on price/features/whatever, and he can't make rude comments or cut people off who he doesn't like? Please pass the bong..
What’s to stop manufacturers of goods from shipping it from a country that is not China, laundering it through a different country. Paper work for container says, “imported from {non tariff restricted country}” at the ship yard.
Cheap Chinese goods still flood the market. Orange man gets to say he has been hard on China via tariff war.
> The new tariff rates – which range from 100% on electric vehicles, to 50% for solar components, to 25% for all other sectors – will take place over the next two years.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/14/politics/biden-tariffs-chines... May 14, 2024
> Electric vehicles imported from China will see their tariffs more than quadrupled from 27.5% to 100%
And I was eating it up until she turned on self-driving and we crashed into a parked car.
Still a really great EV car at a great price. But I'm not ready for any car's self-driving after that...
I mean, I don't see your problem; she was simply demonstrating that it had the same capability to randomly crash into things as Tesla's solution! That's what people _like_ about the Tesla one; keeps things interesting.
Like the article says, Many Tesla owners are also looking to offload or sell them to avoid any appearance of endorsing Musk or his views or being linked to them in any way.
Many awkward conversations are being had with Tesla owners around Musk and alot of them don't feel comfortable owning the cars anymore.
This BYD feature, while BYD is not a perfect company themselves, will cause further issues for Tesla.
I love FSD. I use it daily. It's replaced a lot of driving for me. This should 100% be available to everyone for free. It will significantly improve safety once edge cases are worked out.
i can't speak for snow tho.
>Two higher-end versions will be installed on more expensive BYD-branded cars and its premium Denza and Yangwang brands. These will enable a car to drive autonomously — though also under human supervision — in more complex urban traffic.
The base version is self driving as in lane assist. It will not change lanes for you or 'self drive' to your destination.
I agree with BYD that these are great safety features and give them props for not gating safety behind a paywall.
This possibility paints a frightening picture of the power of government in the global marketplace. The government of any large country can selectively choose to monopolize any specific industry and wipe out all competitors in other countries via subsidies.
It's not a fair playing field for market participants. It makes the whole environment completely unpredictable and dominated by the whims of hundreds of different governments. It promotes government scheming over raw productive capabilities of workers and entrepreneurs; it throws decentralized economic efficiency under the bus in favor of monopolistic, centralized government-oriented strategies.
In such environment, I can understand why tariffs are essential. You can't have a market where participants are playing by different rules of different countries. Also, you can't expect market participants to familiarize themselves with the (possibly secret) policies of hundreds of different governments or be forced to abandon their entire industry in their own country because they happen to be skilled in an industry which is not propped up in their own country as it is in some other foreign country.
Our system is so incredibly asymmetric, right down to the monetary layer. People ought to refuse to participate at all.
BTW, it's not only China which plays these games; you could also say this about US tech/software industry.
If you look at it from a big picture, one of the major winners of the Ukraine war has been the USA oil and gas industry, as Europe now imports almost 3x the amount of LNG it did before the war from USA [0].
The USA military complex is also doing pretty well, as governments in Europe are allocating more towards defense as Russia seems like a much riskier neighbour than it was 5 years ago.
[0] https://www.bruegel.org/dataset/european-natural-gas-imports
Tesla like? Doesn't Tesla require that you keep your hands on the wheel ?
Cars in America are still relatively cheap to buy and operate by world standards. They aren't much cheaper in China (and can become very expensive for non-econo luxury models), and you can face a lot of restrictions on when you can use them.
I didn't know that, good point! You would already want to get an EV in Beijing since the license lottery has a separate allotment for them, but even then you might not win a license (not sure what the odds are right now, it depends on what they are selling). I assume SH is the same.
there're only certain stages of economy had advantages in foreign trade so they claim themself as 'free market' and try to force others accept this 'free market'
If anything, I would consider using the word "god" in a commercial tech product to be disrespectful to an actual believer.
Among atheists one would think it would no more troubling than referencing Legolas in a name. [1]
In China I suspect they'd object to "Mao's Eyes" as a name for this.
[1] Many atheists may register an objection on the grounds of upsetting others in the community.
Plus, like in English, there are a ton of words people use more for the poetic impressiveness than because they're specifically asserting a supernatural power.
Also, when a religion refuses to gain approval, the party quite literally hard forks it. Catholic? No, you have the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association; which was only recently tentatively reconciled after about 60 years of schism (though it’s still a very uneasy peace).
I mean for one that religion isn't frowned upon and that it's just a marketing slogan, but also if you want to actually look at it, the Chinese phrase used by BYD is: 天神之眼, what they've in English translated to "God" is, in Chinese "Tian" (Heaven) a very common concept you have in Taoism or Confucianism or pretty much any Chinese mythology. You might have come across the phrase Tianxia (天下) "under heaven". But for an Anglophone audience "God" is probably catchier.
I think it literally means god in Chinese. There are various ways to get god out sky (like laotian, tianna, etc...).
What gave you this idea?
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/10/23/10-things...
Especially point #8, "The ruling Chinese Communist Party promotes atheism and discourages citizens from practicing religion"
as for your question
> "The ruling Chinese Communist Party promotes atheism and discourages citizens from practicing religion"
communisim is a materialism ideology, so communists should not practice religion, CPC members could be discharge if they do so
there's no limits for non-CPC citizens abt this, "religion freedom should be respected" is written in the constitution
this is not a question for anyone in China or have traveled in China, because if you were there you'll see how many people in temples there at weekends
a funny part, empire's propaganda sometimes against each other: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/22/temple-visits-...
With statements like yours, it feels like the left is rooting for the most catastrophic outcomes possible for that whole country, just to spite Trump. Even though we'd all lose and Trump wouldn't be affected either way.
I'm not American or a "leftist" for reference. I have no ill will towards the American people, neither the Chinese or any other. Governments on the other hand.... But regardless if I can buy a car for 1/2 the cost from one belligerent major power over another. Yeah - I'll take the half price car.
> With statements like yours, it feels like the left is rooting for the most catastrophic outcomes possible for that whole country, just to spite Trump. Even though we'd all lose and Trump wouldn't be affected either way.
This only makes sense if the poster is American though right? Otherwise, they are just being pragmatic.
If you really think Trump is going to try to literally take territory though, you've really been trolled. He has said all kinds of ridiculous shit in his 'political career.' That's his one signature thing.
This attitude is why Trump won. A statement like that sounds like you've stopped trying to make anything better, or to articulate a competing plan and convince voters to support it.
So, in this way, the self-loathing defeatism is partly responsible for people like Trump gaining more power.
In my opinion the reason why we're in the dark ages of EVs is that a majority of Americans have range anxiety so our EVs have to weigh a lot and cost a lot to have 250 mile batteries, whereas everywhere else you can buy a car with an 80 mile range for a price poor people can actually afford.
Note - the range anxiety is both because of our car-centric (sub)urban design encouraging lifestyles where you drive 100 miles a day, and because of how a large number of urban dwellers and even suburban non-rich have no garages to do home charging. (And it's objectively far worse to own an EV for anyone who can't charge it at home.) All of this causes people to refuse to buy cars with say, 75-100 miles of range unless they're hybrids.
The same party that happily ran over peaceful protestors with tanks, and never even so much as apologized for it, is still in power almost 40 years later. They openly put their people in prison just for criticizing the Party.
People compare the CCP to Western countries' misdeeds against their citizens when there's not even a comparison. For instance, when the US illegally wiretapped on the AT&T and Verizon networks to slurp up all the call data they wanted, they didn't actually use that data to imprison citizens for their speech, even ones who said things like "Bush is a war criminal." China both does the privacy invasion itself, and quite openly uses anything they can uncover to persecute anyone they deem a threat to their power.
USA does this as well, its just critique of government by a single person is not a credible threat to the US government. Mind you, all these "freedom fighters" ended up being financed by the USAID, so literally were foreign agents.
Whistleblowers get the whole book thrown at them, Snowden and Assange got nearly killed by CIA, Iraq files whistleblowers get book thrown at them.
USA is just as bad empire as China, and probably even worse, because of the millions of murdered innocent people over the decades of forever wars.
China has no such track record
> millions of murdered innocent people [...] China has no such track record
No, China, since becoming Communist, has specialized more in murdering their own citizens.
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/help-me-understand-all-the-...
Anyway, thanks for providing a great exhibit of exactly what I was talking about: either CCP propaganda, or hopelessly naïve Westerner bent on believing in these two nations' moral equivalency. This is the same level of honest discourse we'll see heavily promoted on TikTok when China invades Taiwan in a few months or years, saying "China and the US are the same, so who cares if they take over a democracy by force."
Do you also think US civil war was Americans genociding own citizens?
I dont care what China does to chinese, I care more about what America does to other countries like in the middle east or Afghanistan
You can see the effects of the free market in many industries which have been decimated by globalization.
We used to be able to get a manufacturing job which would provide for a family, but decided it was okay to allow big corps to use slave labor on the other side of the planet and just ship everything across the world (not great for carbon emissions). Just look at the rust belt.
It’s not a bad idea to say that we should have the free market stop at our border. Other countries don’t play by the same rules that we do and can even have entire industries propped up by a foreign government in order to take up market share.
Removing industry from an area brings nothing but misery to the people who live there. Are you suggesting that some sort of communism should have been implemented in the rust belt where we give these people free money or something?
The Chinese market is way larger than the US one, they have everything they need to lift themselves out of poverty by building things for themselves. The US became the richest country in the world by building everything here and reaping the rewards with greatly increased prosperity.
There is no reason to send all our good paying jobs to the other side of the world, and ship all goods across literally the entire planet, the process of which emits and insane amount of C02, just so that the owners of mega corporations can make a few extra dollars per unit.
tariff concerns should be discussed via WTO, not unilateral sanctions.
otherwise all this "rules based order" is not worth paper it is written on
why would anyone trust usa's word if any agreement/word/promise can be torn unilaterally?
I suspect we're going to see the answer to that question play out over the next several years.
In general, the US would introduce retaliatory tariffs in that scenario; the game theory of the situation basically requires that.
Despite popular belief, the CCP is also not actually completely immune to public discontent (it often seems to be really quite scared of it), and would likely be willing to kick off a major trade war, as it would cause price increases.
There is alot if variety for cars. The US market can't be the only market keeping every European and Asian car manufacturer in business.
Let capitalism dictate where the cars get made. It is the American way.
the question should be: Should American consumers be allowed to drive green environmentally friendly cars for $10k or should they be forced to shell out $50k (+interest) to billionaire elon musk
The Mi SU7, a pretty competitive EV with Model 3, starts at around $30k (still a pretty decent price).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaomi_SU7
Irrespective of what country, and your belief/disbelief in the threat level, you have to see that a highly internet-reliant device that would bring much of the country anywhere (thanks to car-centric infrastructure) would be a perfect target for a hostile nation, no? With one click you cripple the workforce. Again, speaking nothing of which country is or is not hostile.
Verizon, ATT, Tmobile and their APNs are controlled by the FCC, and any regulation can force vehicle traffic to be isolated if there is credible threat.
but, why would BYD or other nation sabotage its own future profits by bricking cars?? it doesn't make sense.
if I sell you gadget, I would never brick it, cause I am going to lose all future profits
> Verizon, ATT, Tmobile and their APNs are controlled by the FCC, and any regulation can force vehicle traffic to be isolated if there is credible threat.
This response would *not* be soon enough. One response from a server, and the car could be bricked forever, explode/short circuit causing a fire, self-drive into the nearest government building, etc. A car is a huge weapon, especially when remotely controlled. This software could be pre-installed from the factory, with commands injected via side channels. I could imagine a hundred ways to do this.
> but, why would BYD or other nation sabotage its own future profits by bricking cars?? it doesn't make sense.
I'm precluding this situation with a background level of hostility between nations... they don't care about maximizing profit, but maximizing damage. It would be a government stepping in forcing this.
second, you assume China will resort to bricking civilian cars, when they have better options like actual weapons. Bricked car can easily be towed away, there is no way China can cause damage.
the best way for China is to keep manufacturing cars and selling them to USA for $$$ - this will ensure the relationships are beneficial to China (mutual trade is better than military conflict)
You have the tools to reverse-engineer every single chip in your car to ensure they aren't backdoored?
> second, you assume China will resort to bricking civilian cars, when they have better options like actual weapons.
Again, my argument has nothing to do with China, I'm simply saying cars would be a great thing to weaponize. Much easier than smuggling a weapon into the US, you just sell a car to a consumer and you have functionally a remote-controllable bomb.
> Bricked car can easily be towed away, there is no way China can cause damage.
Not if it's driven away and used in an attack first. did you read my reply? You still haven't actually responded to my point that internet-connected cars would be an excellent weapon by a hostile nation.
Any backdoors would be easily detectable and preventable just by .... not connecting the car to the Internet, or folding connection to isolated VPN not accessible from the outside.
all vehicle traffic can be inspected and sinkholed with IoT firewall, if you really want it
Good point though. My current cars drive just fine without internet - I would hope future cars would continue to do so, even if GPS doesn't work, can't find a charging station, etc. Otherwise, I'll be stuck with gas cars until the day they take my license..
It is clearly problematic when it is weaponized to destroy a nation-state’s industrial output surreptitiously.
are we talking about the US or China or Canda or Mexico here? i can't keep track of who the "bad guys" are that are supposedly weaponizing and who the victims are.
On 12/17/24 they hit a 52 week high around $490 per share. Since then, in less than two months, they have lost one third of their value. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA/
Musk has single-handedly alienated his core domestic buying demographic in favor of a group that, when polled, says they would not consider an EV at rates of around 70%.
EU markets in which TSLA was viable but contested are even worse.
This while Tesla's strongest international competitor is passing on units sold, executing better, and underpricing them.
As someone who has followed Tesla since the Model S, previously held Musk in some regard, and test drove a Model 3 I find this such an abject travesty of an outcome for what should have been a great US based global car maker and someone who had the potential to accomplish such good for the world with their incredible wealth and privilege.
Other US competitors aren't at parity with Tesla or BYD. Nikola went bust. Legacy automakers turned out mediocre EVs. Rivian is the only true competitor, but they are a luxury brand and don't have Tesla's crown jewel (the Supercharger network).
Musk also had zero experience or track record making cars when Musk took over, nor any hardware products of any kind, for that matter, or running a manufacturing org.
Occam's razor would indicate it's very improbably to credit success all to him.
This is based off what? Couldn’t this be argued for literally any company?
The number of times I had to manually disengage because it was doing something stupid / dangerous was... a lot. More than a dozen interventions, maybe two dozen.
Waymo is so much more confident and reliable than FSD.
Perhaps this Chinese EV car is loaded up to the tits with surveillance technology and EV company is going to go behind your back and sell it to the highest bidder to make up the loss in sale of vehicle.
A lot of the chinese car brands are using European design expertise. Nio and Zeekr have a full 5-star Euro NCAP lineup, and even the small weird ones like the “Ora Funky Cat” are getting top safety marks.
This is true about Tesla FSD (which costs $$$$) too, but alas.
So no, that wasn't free either.
suddenly some foreign company gains control over traffic in your country
think how it works with various Maps and their pathfinding algorithms, how often you see drivers blindly following Maps instructions? how often do you see drivers who are clueless without Maps?
the self driving / remote control will cause even more problems (+ some car manufacturers simply cannot achieve good quality)