I wish education wasn't so split between "academic" and "vocational" (for lack of better terms).
In high school for my A levels I was able to take both Maths, Physics and Politics (with an academic focus) and Metalworking and Photography (with a more practical hands-on focus). I loved this, and feel like this was incredibly useful to me later in life.
But for some reason beyond school level you are mostly forced to choose between academics and hands-on work (at least in the UK). With the hands-on pathways being looked down on by much of society.
ChrisMarshallNY 31 days ago [-]
Because of reasons, my education was a vocational tech school. The fly-by-night type that sprang up in the 1980s, to suck at the teat of the GI Bill, and all those Vietnam vets (many of my classmates were vets).
It's long gone, now, but it taught me to be a good worker. They had dress codes, fixed, workday-long hours, little vacation, and behavioral rules.
By the time I graduated, I was able to immediately start working in a defense contractor's shop. When I went in, I was pretty much worthless to the workforce.
I know of folks that credit the military for similar structure.
There's a lot of things that I could have learned at Stanford or MIT (my parents wanted to send me there, but I insisted on paying my own way -see "reasons," above, and they probably would have passed on me anyway -"reasons").
Did OK.
bjelkeman-again 31 days ago [-]
I went back to university to study environmental science. After that, years later, I ended up starting a company designing closed loop food production systems, (well, semi-closed).
I designed and built it with friends, investors and colleagues. Very satisfying. (The fish farm has since the pictures been significantly upgraded.)
It’s absolutely the same in Germany. Trade people against academics. Luckily as an electrical engineer I can pick both tracks simultaneously. Many people are less lucky. The funny thing that self employed plumber or electrician can live way better than salaried worker with university diploma.
Tanjreeve 31 days ago [-]
Is it looked down? It seems like a pretty relentless drumbeat from our media that everyone should be plumbers/electricians etc and not be going to university (except for the children of politicians and journalists who should continue going).
Purely coincidentally the people with those loud voices would benefit from cheaper tradesmen, their kids would have less competition and politically would benefit from a less tertiary educated population.
veunes 30 days ago [-]
It's frustrating how vocational paths are often seen as "less than", when in reality, they're essential
moribvndvs 31 days ago [-]
My father was a machinist for 25 years and then went into education and training for skilled trades, very much screamed about this for most my life. When I dropped out of college, he tried to get me to just enter an apprenticeship for a trade. It’ll be dirty, uncomfortable, sometimes painful, he said, but you’ll leave your work when you go home, and if you’re dedicated and half-good at it, you could eventually have your own business and crew before the physical stuff catches up to you. By then the lack of experienced tradesmen here will have turned into an crisis and I would be in an enviable spot. Here I am, 25 years later, worried I didn’t listen.
Hypothetically, I wonder how viable it is to switch to a vocation like electrician or HVAC in your 40s-50s.
bitwize 31 days ago [-]
My father is a retired mechanical engineer. About 10 or 12 years back he mentored some engineering students on their senior project. He said they were very smart, but had almost never touched a machine before which both frustrated and baffled him. In his day, engineers learned how to make the kinds of parts they designed because a design is a set of instructions to factory workers on how to make the part. If you knew nothing about tooling, tolerances, etc. you couldn't produce adequate designs, and the most valuable information came from actually working with the machines.
xyzzy123 30 days ago [-]
In 2025 making pancakes at school requires a written risk assessment / safety plan.
Health and safety regulation has exploded in the last 40 years and the liability gives administrators heart attacks. Many kids today are not even allowed to use kitchen knives let alone chisels or lathes.
It's not the fault of the kids, but the effects are somewhat self-fulfilling - kids who don't get access to even slightly dangerous things while growing up don't develop the skills and awareness they need to work safely as young adults.
mitthrowaway2 31 days ago [-]
It's probably not their fault. A lot of university engineering programs don't provide students with access to machine shops.
blitzar 30 days ago [-]
A lot of university engineering departments don't have machine shops.
bitwize 30 days ago [-]
He was more frustrated with how the state of education had changed than with the students themselves. He actually enjoyed working with them.
jcgrillo 29 days ago [-]
I believe the same problem is present in software. The same things that make "physical" tools good are what make computer tools good. If you don't have any experience using physical tools, you won't be easily able to appreciate what using a good tool feels like. I think a lot of the problems in software--buggy, inefficient, over complicated, user hostile crap that most of it is--can be traced back to a misunderstanding of the concept of "creativity" or "innovation" rooted in simply not knowing where the guard rails are.
Loughla 31 days ago [-]
Go to a community college and get your certifications.
The problem is that the wages are way low starting out. That's why young people tend to do it. If you can swing the first three or four years, then start your own business, you'll be good.
ty6853 31 days ago [-]
The other hazard trades can be dangerous starting out until you work safely even on automatic when sleepless and zoning out. Learning rough carpentry cost me a broken leg, which healed slowly in my 30s and much worse in your 50s.
Larry Haun iirc even broke some bones in his first few years. It's a young man's game, getting over that well enough and fast enough to return to work without going bankrupt.
31 days ago [-]
bitwize 31 days ago [-]
Even as an old man (late 40s)?
lemonberry 31 days ago [-]
Old man? You don't have to age like previous generations. I just turned 50 and feel great. Take care of your body and mind, laugh a lot, spend time with good people, and don't let preconceived notions of what aging looks like dictate your future.
SoftTalker 31 days ago [-]
Spend a day working in a cold crawlspace in 6" of muddy water at age 50 and see how you feel.
giraffe_lady 31 days ago [-]
Yeah but what do you do for work? You don't have to age like previous generations, but if you work trades for 40 years you definitely will.
I don't know about transitioning to hard work in your 40s or later. My background is blue collar but it's telling that I don't know anyone working a skilled trade over 45 who started later than say 30. I don't know any over 45 who would probably say they feel great either.
Loughla 30 days ago [-]
Yes
alnwlsn 31 days ago [-]
I'm glad the "heavy" part of this is not understated. The big iron is out there, surprisingly cheap, and it usually stays put for quite a while because it is a damn bitch to move. Tear down a wall, and put it back later. And make sure your floor won't cave in.
If you ever get yourself into serious hobby machining, get ready for the average density of all your possessions to double.
WillAdams 31 days ago [-]
This is why the Northern European countries have a tradition of teaching Sloyd Woodworing in elementary schools:
>Students may never pick up a tool again, but they will forever have the knowledge of how to make and evaluate things with your hand and your eye and appreciate the labor of others.
jabl 31 days ago [-]
It's spelled "slöjd", and yes, kids in Nordic countries do it in primary school (grades 1-9 or thereabouts). It's not only woodworking, often alternating with textile work (sewing, crocheting etc.), and towards the higher grades there's usually some metal work, maybe a bit of soldering etc.
unwind 30 days ago [-]
It sure is spelled "slöjd" in Swedish, but sloyd [1] seems to be a loan word into English from the late 1800s and the spelling was adjusted.
Absolutely brilliant book. His other one is great too.
memhole 31 days ago [-]
It's super cool to build things. I love talking to people at the makerspace. Lot's of people working on interesting projects. I can't imagine not having home ec either. I don't remember the teachers name, but I've made a quesadilla the same way since 5th grade.
Some tech skills are helpful too. I typically CAD projects so I know what size lumber and cuts need to be made.
s1artibartfast 31 days ago [-]
I'm split on the topic. I think there is value in working with your hands on a service basis, but don't believe in trying to build things.
My father was a farmer for 40 years and built a business that was supposed to be his retirement. Then the government eminent domained his water rights without any compensation, destroying his life's work, and leaving him and all the other farmers in the area high and dry.
Now I don't build anything that isnt cashed out immediately.
cbracketdash 31 days ago [-]
May I ask which region this happened in? Building things is the powerhouse of societal innovation and if you live in a democratic country, you can vote out bad policy!
s1artibartfast 31 days ago [-]
Southern California, USA.
The funny thing about democracies is other votes count too. 99% of the population is happy with the outcome because they get more water water and don't have any person rights they feel are put at risk.
I'm guessing the state figured most of the farmers in their 60s can't afford legal challenge when there primary financial assets were cut out from under them and if they do, it can be tied up in the courts until most of them die. That's how it seems to be playing out anyways.
ty6853 31 days ago [-]
More and more the majority has discovered they can vote themselves into someone else's pocket. City dwellers can also horde water aquifers, and since they don't have the firsthand experience of drilling a $30,000 well they're oblivious as to how they ruin others.
dh2022 31 days ago [-]
“Portable property, my good sir, portable property”, Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities.
at_a_remove 31 days ago [-]
Before the fall of Techshop, they offered me a setup where I could take all of the classes I wanted in three months. Muhahahahaha.
I already had a few advantages going in: a year of drafting in high school, a year of computer drafting in college (mind you the tools were long dead); the ability to think in parametrics; courses in engineering to go with my physics degree; and just being a general geek. Like a maniac, I took all but one class they offered.
Probably one of the happiest times of my life, scampering around the shop and churning out trinkets for friends and family, making weird art projects for myself.
noufalibrahim 31 days ago [-]
I recently read a book called "Shop Class as Soul Craft" which talks about "the trades" and how it shapes the individual and the nation. I found it really enlightening and highly recommend it.
I have a few hobbies that are somewhat physical (whittling, calligraphy) and the shift from purely digital work to those are very relaxing. There's something special about involving more senses that just your eyes with a job.
FinnLobsien 30 days ago [-]
I think the fact that essays like this one proliferate is showing a cultural reversion.
For the past few decades, there was a push for everyone to get a university degree, driven by a prmise that academic achievement would guarantee a prosperous life: A good salary and a high-status job.
We've seen that promise broken. Especially in the US, where student loans are a drag on people's lives. But even in Europe, where people will get degrees in things that are better taught on the job (i.e. graphic design) and still need to struggle getting internships and even badly-paid junior roles.
I think it's been known for a long time that you can make money in the crafts, often more than you do in entry-level office jobs. But I think an important part of making the crafts more popular is status.
If your dad is a lawyer and your mom is a professor, you might not get encouragement if you want to be a welder, chef or roofer.
There needs to be more respect for those professions. They, too should get respect for learning a complex craft and mastering it.
djoldman 30 days ago [-]
> It’s all part of the sharp decline in vocational education — shop class — in this nation that began in the 1980s as blue collars became unfashionable and the emphasis shifted to a college education.
Low supply?
> “There’s a huge need for people in CTE fields,” Kaine told me Friday. “The old stigma about CTE, or vocational education, that’s really disappearing and there’s kind of a renaissance going on.”
Big demand?
This would imply that machinists, etc., are enjoying a big surge in salary. Is this true?
psd1 28 days ago [-]
I can only offer anecdata, but good luck getting a plumber to attend in London without paying £100 for them to cross the threshold
robomc 31 days ago [-]
> It’s all part of the sharp decline in vocational education — shop class — in this nation that began in the 1980s as blue collars became unfashionable and the emphasis shifted to a college education.
Yeah that's what happened. They became "unfashionable", rather than hopelessly precarious due to structural economic changes.
almosthere 31 days ago [-]
What is wild to me about that, is that there is a huge untapped market for 1 man builds. If I can go out and build a house twice a year for 150-200k each, and sell them for 400-500k, then I'm way ahead of what I would get as a remote developer. And 400-500 is conservative, in the right market, 600-700.
What bothers me is gatekeeping the capital to do this, as well as the "apprenticeship" requirements to get your gen con license.
It would solve two problems simultaneously - something laid off engineers can easily do (they are problem solvers and fast learners).
I'm building my own house, and it's ridiculously easy (not all parts). I hope to build more after and sell them.
nancyminusone 31 days ago [-]
If that's what's bothering you, there's no way in hell I'd hire you to build a house.
quesera 31 days ago [-]
That's unnecessarily hostile.
House building is not that difficult. And literally zero of the licensed trades (plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc) cannot be learned by a smart and motivated person in 1-2 months at most, instead of the multiple years (each, nonconcurrently) required for apprentice, journeyman, and eventual master licensing.
I've built three houses. I subbed out the work that was required by local regs (this varies by jurisdiction and year), and did the work myself, with inspection where available, wherever possible. Not difficult at all.
nancyminusone 31 days ago [-]
Of course it's not hard, licences are not awarded based on how hard something is, they are supposed to be awarded for competence.
Anyone can and should be able to build their own house (I have done so myself), but if you ask for someone else to depend on your work, you had better prove it.
quesera 31 days ago [-]
But licenses are not awarded based on competence.
They are awarded based on years of service as an apprentice and a journeyman to a master, who is effectively your pimp until you become a master yourself.
Guess who certifies master tradesmen? They guy who prefers to have you working for him instead of competing with him. It's a racket. There's some logic behind it, but less than you'd think.
Becoming fully competent to plumb or wire a house takes a few weeks of instruction. If that. It's just not difficult to become competent. It takes a bit longer to get fast though!
I would fully support a certification process that allows you to demonstrate your competence in a written and practical exam in front of experts who have no stake in your success or failure. But that is not the way it works.
(Actually, there are a few programs where you can do this for some work that would otherwise require a formal license. Lead paint remediation, of low or medium-risk surfaces, is one of them.)
ty6853 31 days ago [-]
In AZ you can get a lot of trades licenses like finish carpenter with just a test. You can also owner/build and self certify then later flip the house which bypasses licensing and sometimes even codes.
almosthere 31 days ago [-]
It's called passing inspections. Which you should know if you had actually built your own house.
ty6853 31 days ago [-]
Not always required. I recently built a house, I did not get anything but septic inspected.
quesera 31 days ago [-]
I'll guess that was in a rural area in the US West?
The further east and urban you go, the more rules you have to follow. This is, ultimately, sensible.
ty6853 31 days ago [-]
Yes. Although there are a few urban areas without inspection. You could build in a burrow near a city in Alaska without even a permit, normally. When they finally outlaw me from building in the west maybe that will be my next stop...
hobs 31 days ago [-]
I would not want a house wired by a 60 day electrician, that's for sure. I don't think I'd want a flood done by the 60 day plumber either, but those are the only two trades I am familiar enough with to be aghast by this comment.
quesera 31 days ago [-]
I'm sure that's true.
And it means that you do not know how to do electrical or plumbing work.
That's fine! But take it from someone who does: it does not take years of training to be excellent at it. Household electric and plumbing is extremely straightforward. Commercial can be much more complicated! And if you run into any semi-complicated stuff, like say a bathroom below grade where you need a toilet to flush uphill ... you learn it from the vast resources available, or you call a plumber for that bit. Simple.
Similarly, if you ever are not 100% certain of your own work, you call a licensed tradesman for the inspection. Note that this is not always allowed -- but where it is, everyone agrees that it makes total sense.
hondo77 31 days ago [-]
Household electric doesn't necessarily take years but it takes longer than 60 days of YouTube videos.
quesera 31 days ago [-]
I learned it in a few days of work. You could too. I don't recommend YouTube though!
The most complicated thing is knowing the code, which boils down to just a handful of simple rules for residential stuff. Most importantly: look it up, don't guess. There's a right way to do everything, and it's never the hard way. There is very little variance or judgement call involved, the code is quite clear and specific.
Doing it right might take additional materials or time though, and that's fine.
XorNot 31 days ago [-]
Just want to say the push back you're getting on this topic is one I've experienced everywhere - the actual work of the trades is basically treated as an unknowable black magic which only it's arcane practitioners can do.
Which I think is partly held up essentially by the "dodgy tradie" stories which are routinely passed around but get re-interpreted as "it's very easy to do <obvious stupid thing>" when the stupid thing is something like "don't do a wire run from 10 short pieces of wire you have lying around" or "PVC pipes need to be glued together to not leak".
ty6853 31 days ago [-]
I built my entire house shell from 3 hours of larry haun on youtube in russian and almost nothing else with no experience. Just watched I then copied everything. The hardest part was getting a hold of a 6 ton backhoe for a day to dig the footings, which I also learned to use by pure experimentation about 15 minutes before I dug my foundation.
s1artibartfast 31 days ago [-]
I think 60 days is excessive depending on your prior knowledge. If you understand voltage current and resistance, you can read the electrical code book in a day. Most of it will be irrelevant. Home wiring is almost entirely outlets, junction boxes, and running Romex. You can teach someone to do 95% of it in a day.
It's the edge cases that are time consuming to learn. Understanding each case that could come up on different types of builds, in different scenarios, is an important skill to be a proficient electrician that can walk onto a unknown job site, complete it, and leave at the end of the day. It makes sense if you are running commercial job sites where time is money. It makes sense if there is a failure or upgrade needed on an operational structure.
If someone is smart and time is less critical, it is only moderately slower to learn the edge cases as they come up.
I did the gas, electricity, and plumbing install for my Mom's kitchen, and I did it to the State building code. I did it in one week and with no prior training.
In a lot of ways, the certification process for contractors mirrors that of our white collar workers. Someone might spend 4 years getting a computer engineering degree, learn a dozen languages, study English and art, only to code basic tasks in CSS.
Even simpler, barbers don't really need a 1000 hours of certified coursework to do a buzz cut, or even your 50 most common haircuts.
31 days ago [-]
31 days ago [-]
potato3732842 31 days ago [-]
New construction is stupid simple. Anyone with a pulse can do it. It's like the difference between greenfield dev and surgical bug fixes.
hondo77 31 days ago [-]
So you haven't done bug fixes on something poorly architected initially because the project was started by anyone with a pulse instead of someone experienced?
Same with electrical. Yeah, you can learn the basics but only experience is going to get you to do it right. And two months ain't enough experience to do all the new construction electrical for someone else's house. Doing it for yourself is fine because only you have to deal with what you didn't do completely right when you didn't know any better.
quesera 31 days ago [-]
You will sell your house someday, so doing it yourself has more than just personal implications, which is why inspections are required.
But you're wrong about the experience required. Everything you do in a house gets done repeatedly. A modicum of code knowledge, a good reference book, some simple math to calculate loads, some skill with power tools, and a lot of patience. No problem.
There are zero surprises in a house, the requirements are 100% predictable. Get it inspected, of course, because QA is always beneficial. Be careful, but don't be afraid of it, it's not magical or malevolent.
potato3732842 31 days ago [-]
What passes inspection is only a tiny subset of what is "right and fine and will never cause problems".
The whole point of codes and inspections is to eliminate thinking and turn the subjective into the qualitative.
quesera 31 days ago [-]
I don't know what point you're making here.
You can learn to do competent, inspection-passing, code-compliant, and never-problem-causing electrical work, adequate for wiring a full house, in less than a week.
From your other comments, I think we agree. Apologies if I've misunderstood your points.
potato3732842 31 days ago [-]
I meant to reply to the genius one comment up. He's clearly got no experience hence why he's putting this stuff on a pedestal.
potato3732842 31 days ago [-]
That's exactly my point. Troubleshooting an intermittent problem on a bathroom fan in a subdivided triple decker with common grounds -> hard.
Doing the wiring in a new house (yours or otherwise) -> easy.
The fact that you're making a mountain out of a mole hill her really just screams that you have no experience with ANY of this. The stuff that's hard to "do right" is the stuff that you get one shot at (like concrete) or stuff where the feedback loop is very long (it may take decades to find out that your poor flashing job is letting water in and ruining your siding). The stuff the internet likes to screech about like plumbing and electrical and framing are way easier to validate the quality of because you can test them or because problems will become obvious quickly.
quesera 31 days ago [-]
> Troubleshooting an intermittent problem on a bathroom fan in a subdivided triple decker with common grounds -> hard
I would generalize that to "locating and safely fixing problems inside closed walls or ceilings -> sometimes hard".
Sometimes easy still, but that is where things get complicated, and sometimes dangerous. I've found dead-ended intermittent lines left inside walls without any attempt at proper termination, for example. This is how fires start.
Doing your own electrical work exposes you to the lazy errors made by other people in the past. You learn not to be those people (some of whom were licensed electricians).
almosthere 31 days ago [-]
Most people in those individual trades hired by D.R. Horton are doing things as fast as possible with the cheapest materials.
I personally would want a person that is being paid very well that oversaw every nail, every wire going into that house.
But :shrug: I don't mind you not being my customer. I will give my meticulously installed kiln dried studs/plates, zip sheathing, rockwool, interior rockwool, exterior rockwool jacket and james hardie fireproof house to someone that appreciates it!
ty6853 31 days ago [-]
That's not how one off man and a truck builds normally work. Its usually only viable as a business when doing owner/builder on your own dime then flipping it and repeat. Clients don't want to wait years for one man, nor will banks, but someone will almost certainly buy even a half ass built house upon completion.
Sometimes you also see tradesman do this during down seasons, as it gives them a steady flow of stuff to do that they can complete almost as slow as they like then flip when done.
The buyer likely won't have any insight into the personal motivations of the builder, or what bothers them.
carlosjobim 31 days ago [-]
Any man who is unable to learn to build a house is far behind the average in talent. Everybody used to build their own houses.
harimau777 31 days ago [-]
I think that may be due to differences in building standards between then and now. For example, fire was a much greater risk in previous generations.
potato3732842 31 days ago [-]
It's not that buildings burn that much less readily today. It's that in the past they caught fire way more often. The plethora of wood stoves, lanterns for light, matches for smoking, etc, etc, had more to to with it than anything else.
8bitsrule 30 days ago [-]
In the US here was a decades-long period when you could buy a set of books for next-to-nothing (from Audel; most are now public domain) that would fill you in on most details of most trades. You (along with friends and relatives) could do the parts you understood and farm out the rest.
My dad (Navy electrician) built his own house with help from a Navy friend (carpenter). It sold a half-century later for 5 times what it cost him. The stucco exterior (whoever did it) lasted with zero fails in a climate that varied from -30F to +90F.
bongodongobob 31 days ago [-]
That's hilarious. I'd rather hire a team of people that have specialized teams and have built 1000s of houses, not a guy that built one and thinks he's really good at it, sorry.
_carbyau_ 31 days ago [-]
I understand the point of specialisation/efficiency etc. The concern I have is that of conflicting motives.
A person who builds their own house will care about what they built.
A specialised team will care to get paid and know all the corners to cut to get the job done to the minimum standard.
What kind of house do you want? One built robustly with care? Or one built to minimum standard? Not everyone wants minimum standard.
bongodongobob 31 days ago [-]
It just sounds like you don't know how construction works.
_carbyau_ 31 days ago [-]
It just sounds like you don't know how people work.
As some of the other "I build my own house" commenters here have mentioned, nothing stops them from hiring people when they want and specifying higher than code minimums. Building your own house doesn't mean you have to do absolutely everything even when it doesn't make sense because someone else has the tools to do it better. But it does mean they have the choice.
bongodongobob 30 days ago [-]
I work for a national construction company. You saying "construction not done diy = bad quality" makes you an absolute clown dude, just stop. There are guys working here that have been tradesman before you were born. The arrogance to say you can do it better is astonishing.
_carbyau_ 30 days ago [-]
Whoa up there. I am not attacking the people you work with. I also don't have to "stop" because you wish to put words in my mouth and broadcast assumptions unchallenged.
I never said "construction not done diy = bad quality".
I tried to say: "tradesperson work has incentive to meet code and move on, as opposed to diy which has incentive to build something that person wants to live with". My attempt to say that clearly didn't work well. Good thing my trade is not wordsmithing.
If you want to bring up "bad quality" ... like all humans there are dodgy elements in any group. I'm sure a whole forum of war stories of dumb shit tradespeople have done can come to light - there's probably a subreddit. Maybe all the people you work with are legends in their craft. However my point is not the skill level - it is the structure of motivations.
A person building their own house thinks differently about the house than tradespeople coming and going.
Asides:
1. where do you think DIY builders come from? Everyone I know doing/did it either is or was a tradesperson. They decided to stop going job to job for someone else and put more time into generalising so they can make something for themselves.
2. how old do you think I am? I would hope the "tradesman before I was born" could be retired before they got to their 70's. I guess some people like to keep moving and work is as good as anything.
acheron 31 days ago [-]
The “team of people that build 1000s of houses” have the motto that if they didn’t make any mistakes, they’re not working fast enough. Give me one guy who actually cares any day.
quesera 31 days ago [-]
This post is literally about the value of building things with your own hands.
If you do not derive value from that sort of thing, then what point are you trying to make?
I have no desire to sew my own clothes, but I'm guessing you are not interested in hearing me talk more about that?
bongodongobob 31 days ago [-]
When I think of building things with my hands I think of building a table, refinishing a dresser, building a shed, soldering some electronics. 99% of people should consider doing these things. 99% should not consider building a house. That's engineering, not a hobby. How many people have done this, 1/100000? It's beyond the spectrum of things you should DIY. You have to be a little crazy to even consider it. Most people have 40+ hr a week jobs and can't build a fuckin home in their spare time. If you have the time, talent, and money to do this, great. You are part of a tiny elite group of people.
defrost 31 days ago [-]
> How many people have done this, 1/100000? It's beyond the spectrum of things you should DIY.
Where I live, Western Australia, maybe 2% of adults that I know have been actively involved in building and or major rennovations of a house.
There are a lot of people here with serious trades backgrounds, many with rural backgrounds that'll tackle anything.
People here even build their own aircraft and quirky ground effect flying machines.
I've built three houses; two significant renno's (jacking up and replacing major structural elements), and one from foundations upwards.
My father's played a major role in three full builds (he's not a "builder by trade", just a former farm hand, shearer, five year navy, mining foreman, etc. type).
> You are part of a tiny elite group of people.
Still, not that hard.
AngryData 31 days ago [-]
If it is a standard type of wooden stud home the engineering skill is basically nonexist just by following general framing patterns which haven't changed much at all in around 150 years except for not balloon framing studs across multiple floors and instead stacking floors on top of walls. Framing and layout design is probably the easiest part of building a wood stud home. Once you know how basic floors, walls, and openings like doors and windows are built they will all fit together in any combination you like and be more than structurally sound because the basic design is seriously overbuilt.
I think most people would run into the most trouble trying to follow code with electrical, plumbing, and HVAC. You can frame 95% of a house the same way as a 120 year old house, but if you go beyond 15 years then all those utilities have had constantly evolving regulations and design constraints and just because you saw it in a dozen other houses doesn't mean it will pass this years code.
ty6853 31 days ago [-]
If you follow IRC ( code book )building a home can be entirely prescriptive with 0 engineering. This is what I did since I'm not a structural engineer and I didn't have money for engineered plans nor an architect.
quesera 31 days ago [-]
You've established that you don't know much about house construction.
OK, definitely do not build a house until you do a little bit of research on the topic.
But if the topic interests you, it's worth looking into. It's not nearly as complicated or arcane as you imagine.
In the meantime though, you seem to have very strong opinions without the knowledge to support them. If you do find a receptive audience for that kind of thing somewhere, it will be to the detriment of all involved.
horns4lyfe 30 days ago [-]
lol specialized teams? It’s just whatever illegal immigrants are willing to show up that day
loa_in_ 31 days ago [-]
It's the same logic as people doing machineworking projects on YouTube. Things thought crazy, but not so crazy after all, fascinating instead. Going off the beaten path might be expensive at first, but the payoff is much better too. Emanating inspiration lasts for ages and is immeasurable in value.
Animats 31 days ago [-]
The maker movement is so dead in the US that it's been forgotten.
I had a TechShop membership for years, and a TheShop membership after that, right up to the bankruptcy. The gym business model doesn't fit. Gyms work because people only show up a few hours per week, max. A gym can have 10x to 30x its capacity in members. For a maker space, people show up more, and it's only 2x - 3x.
I went to the wake for maker spaces, a small meeting in Silicon Valley. Some guy from TechShop made excuses. The guy who bought Heathkit went on about their retro kits.
Then we all went home.
There are still some maker spaces, but they're mostly 3D printers, sewing machines, and paper-folding, not lathes and mills. They're much more kid-oriented, with kids doing prescribed projects.
Moving to Mare Island reduced cost, but nobody wants to go there.
aeontech 31 days ago [-]
I miss TechShop, it was full of interesting people.
AStonesThrow 31 days ago [-]
Stranger than fiction to me is the experience of generations who'll have less opportunity, less wealth, less of whatever makes life good, and progressively going down the ladder.
There's much ink spilled on civil rights and people who fight to gain opportunity, acceptance into society, good educations, employment and leadership.
And perhaps it's not so easy for the privilged folk to accept displacement or disenfranchisement in favor of in-groups. Because if equity and justice are done, every winner is balanced by a loser, because you cannot magically grow an economy to expand rights and include everyone, even with stable resources and game hasn't changed. It didn't escape my notice that there were murmurings of fleeing the city, prepping for disaster, going full granola and off the grid and kiss this world goodbye soon. Are we in the Matrix? Mom's basement with a kitkat bar? Are all the birds replaced by machines?
I've been studying a bit of philosophy and history and seeing threads that just can't be denied, where the struggle for power and privilege is claiming casualties as abortion, addiction, mental illness, homelessness and unemployment. It seems absurd to propose that we're a society enslaved by machines, or Life Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness aren't as equitable as we'd hoped.
But I am taking sick and perverse pleasures in simply hand-decorating Thank-You notes with a fistful of magic markers, and folding up paper and doing other things in meatspace, things that were unthinkable when my hands were welded to the Super NES controls or Type M Keyboard.
ngcc_hk 30 days ago [-]
It is part thinking in an “or” manner and pure fashion. Necessary for a group to work but not for a society. It is very hard to find a philosophy and religion that cover its differences within itself. Society even extreme totalitarian cannot be pure but try.
But say a Darkroom workshop you cannot easy do miller etc. A republican group is hard to get some social … a middle of the road killed by both sides …
How to accommodate and work with difference is a question. Both AI and non-AI … the key is the and part.
AStonesThrow 30 days ago [-]
Yeah, as a child I felt the effects of a pure community, as I perceived it, but I was convinced that the world was how it looked on radio and TV. So working in tech I realized how bonkers and hypocritical that could be, and began clinging to forgotten traditions and lost arts of the past as if I could recover them or convince others to go full Luddite.
Rather than following the threads back and forth to see that it's all a journey in space and time, and I had no idea about 1,000km away, much less 80 years ago in my own state!
cbracketdash 31 days ago [-]
An open-ended question to HN: given the current rate of innovation in AI and the increase in popularity (hence more uni students studying CS), will learning a trade still be worth it 10 years down the line?
lnsru 30 days ago [-]
Trade jobs will be even better then! Because everybody will be busy fighting for the few well paid CS jobs. Why? OpenCV is 24 years old today and yet Amazon has an army of people who just pick things from the boxes. For last 10 years we have unlimited processing power and it’s not different today. Self driving cars are somehow progressed from Project Prometheus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_Prometheus_Project But still my model Y does once a while phantom braking while driving by itself. Do you see something huge coming in humanity’s tech development to change things radically?
Every well paid engineer or manager will pay somebody a lot of money to make water flow again or have lights and internet working asap. That’s obvious.
redeux 31 days ago [-]
In a timeline where ai continues to advance at the current rate and ends up destroying a lot of office jobs I could see the trades becoming much more competitive since the potential labor pool would become much larger.
lnsru 30 days ago [-]
You’re not right on this. Office workers are not suitable for trade jobs. They have these chicken arms, overweight, spine problems and no endurance. Drilling or digging or crawling under pipes whole day requires good health. There are 4 guys from a team of 11 people I work with that look healthy and fit for such jobs. Others (heavily) obese or not fit after an accident. Or too old.
When I invite my ex colleagues and they offer to help in my under-construction-house it’s very sad to see a young guy lying flat after 60-90 minutes of hard work.
roenxi 31 days ago [-]
Yeah but that isn't exactly the question - AI will presumably push up the median living standard because a bunch of things get cheaper and nothing gets worse. There are just more options and everything is better organised. A bit like being a king in ancient India vs a barista today. The barista still gets better medical care than the king, even though it is a much lower status role and quite competitive compared to ruling a country.
The real question is "what roles are going to be in a good position to capture value from all the wealth generation?". As far as people selling labour are concerned it could be the trades.
neom 31 days ago [-]
Depends on what happens with robotics, but I don't think I can even imagine how to put myself in the shoes of a 17 year old in 10 years time thinking about the future, I'd guess the things they can dream to go and do will be vastly different than we did? The Anthropic AI report was very eye opening, and then this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu7LSNYWDTs
We're a lot more than 10 years away from a robot that can snake out a plugged toilet.
alnwlsn 31 days ago [-]
For the conceivable future, people will still need their lights to work and their toilets to flush. I would hope it's worth it because it's a lot better than the alternative.
Duanemclemore 31 days ago [-]
I think the protagonist of this article is as rad as the story is sad. I do understand the desire to frame the narrative as having the most possible impact, but I think the framing ("joy and honor?" "strengthen our nation") is ham-fisted and reductive. It starts to unpack something meaningful though...
It IS a huge shame to see wood and machine shop programs disappear. Even if you're not "blue collar" or a "craftsperson" there are massive benefits to learning the processes of working with your hands. At my undergrad architecture school you had to learn to use the shop in your first weeks. If you were familiar with the tools you had to go through the training and get re-certified. If you were never required to use them before, now you were. But power tools are such a time saver for always busy architecture students that you just did it anyway. Even if somehow you managed to avoid it you were still required to make physical models which requires precision, attention to detail, and care around sharp tools. In the 2000's there was a move toward an entirely digital pedagogy, but the pendulum has swung back - in architectural education today we require our students to make physical models. Many professors are less passionate about making still require a final model to "prove" your ideas. But as someone who bangs on endlessly about the lessons to be learned from craft I make my students use them as a constant and iterative process of prototyping and testing ideas.
There are some things that absolutely cannot be understood without having to struggle through how to represent them in real materials with real properties, in space, and subjected to gravity. Hand craft makes you plan your actions carefully - even in the small. There is no undo button on a hundred dollar piece of burl walnut. And unless you learn to always be constantly aware of your body and movements (heck, let's intellectualize and call it proprioception) a chop saw can get a little... choppy. Understanding that "let the machine do the work" is simultaneously safety advice AND a philosophical masterstroke is sublime.
I never took a shop or vo-tech class, but I grew up around machines and craft. My father was a union machinist making jet engines (and tooling), only retiring from poor health right after hitting his 30 years. His stepdad got him in to the trade, and was a career machinist turned manager. My dad's half brothers were gearheads - one has bought, revived, and sold literally more cars than he can count with nothing more than a vo-tech degree (but his first flip when he was 14). His day job is in machining consumables sales. His home shop would put most of his clients to shame. My dad's other half brother has an Associates in Electrical Engineering and has always been in high demand as an embedded and controls systems programmer. I changed my parents' oil for the first time solo when I was eight (for reference I also wrote my first simple computer program when I was seven). We all grew up working closely with machines. It was just what we did. To this day I'm the one in any situation who winds up fixing anything wonky. I can't explain it beyond "sometimes machines just speak to me." Sounds ridiculous but it's just a process of understanding through exposure how things normally should work and how to spot the things that are out of whack. Once you can understand the cues these complex machine systems want to give you it provides insight into ones you've never worked with before...
That's all to say even in the most intellectual modes there are lessons to be learned from understanding how to use (and not use!!!) machines. The death of shop class is unfortunate and short-sighted. Everyone across the political spectrum is guilty, all together for the death or flight of the industries that demanded these classes in the first place. I don't believe there's anything -intrinsically- redemptive about understanding these processes. (Knowing lots of building tradesmen will immediately put lie to the more over-the-top notions in the article.) But the ability to mediate between your brain and the outcomes of physical processes that comes with machine work is exciting (even joyful yes) and filled with lessons far beyond learning to face mill a plate or lathe a precise cylinder, etc.
aporetics 31 days ago [-]
You would think that at the very least our military would not tolerate having to build its machinery with parts from abroad. Can anyone speak to this?
gnarcoregrizz 31 days ago [-]
Shit's tough though. Most tradespeople have lots of injuries... smashed hands, bad joints, have to breathe in toxic shit all day, bad hearing. My 35yo friend can hardly stand from back pain. And, it can be _very_ skilled. Business/shop owners can and do make quite a bit more than the standard software engineer.
attila-lendvai 31 days ago [-]
i have 35yo programmer friends who can hardly stand from back pain.
i don't want to diminish the risk of injuries, but in big part it's also a question of lifestyle. every once in a while even programmers need to lift something beyond their current capacity... and even craftsmen can become couch potatos who only lift at work when they must... and because of that lose touch with their limits.
(programmer here who does metalworks as a hobby)
XorNot 31 days ago [-]
Nothing reminds you of your mortality when on the weekend you feel the exact moment you were twisting just slightly the wrong way while moving something.
ngcc_hk 30 days ago [-]
Or just put the sun shade of my car to the back seat and twist my left arm … still pain after 1 year.
3D30497420 30 days ago [-]
I subscribe to number of construction/trades-related sub-Reddits, mostly to learn since I'm starting to do a lot more DIY work on my house. It really is a tough job physically, both in overall strain and specific injuries. Many people on those groups (especially the older ones) talk about downing painkillers just to get themselves through the day.
Edit: Actually reading the article now, and...
> One slip and you get a hand or foot bitten off. A jack slipped once and smashed the side of his jaw, requiring $20,000 in dental surgery. “I kept working that day, though.”
That's insane and just toxic. I feel like so much of this "working with your hands" is joined with this idea of making people "tougher" because that's intrinsically better.
Edit 2: And this:
> You know, I’m more proud of being a journeyman bricklayer than being a college biology graduate. To know how to work with your hands is a great gift, good for your body and your heart.
Why? I get this is a politician saying this, but I see little reason why one should be mythologized more than the other.
In high school for my A levels I was able to take both Maths, Physics and Politics (with an academic focus) and Metalworking and Photography (with a more practical hands-on focus). I loved this, and feel like this was incredibly useful to me later in life.
But for some reason beyond school level you are mostly forced to choose between academics and hands-on work (at least in the UK). With the hands-on pathways being looked down on by much of society.
It's long gone, now, but it taught me to be a good worker. They had dress codes, fixed, workday-long hours, little vacation, and behavioral rules.
By the time I graduated, I was able to immediately start working in a defense contractor's shop. When I went in, I was pretty much worthless to the workforce.
I know of folks that credit the military for similar structure.
There's a lot of things that I could have learned at Stanford or MIT (my parents wanted to send me there, but I insisted on paying my own way -see "reasons," above, and they probably would have passed on me anyway -"reasons").
Did OK.
I designed and built it with friends, investors and colleagues. Very satisfying. (The fish farm has since the pictures been significantly upgraded.)
https://cirkularodling.se/build-an-aquaponic-indoor-farm-par...
Purely coincidentally the people with those loud voices would benefit from cheaper tradesmen, their kids would have less competition and politically would benefit from a less tertiary educated population.
Hypothetically, I wonder how viable it is to switch to a vocation like electrician or HVAC in your 40s-50s.
Health and safety regulation has exploded in the last 40 years and the liability gives administrators heart attacks. Many kids today are not even allowed to use kitchen knives let alone chisels or lathes.
It's not the fault of the kids, but the effects are somewhat self-fulfilling - kids who don't get access to even slightly dangerous things while growing up don't develop the skills and awareness they need to work safely as young adults.
The problem is that the wages are way low starting out. That's why young people tend to do it. If you can swing the first three or four years, then start your own business, you'll be good.
Larry Haun iirc even broke some bones in his first few years. It's a young man's game, getting over that well enough and fast enough to return to work without going bankrupt.
I don't know about transitioning to hard work in your 40s or later. My background is blue collar but it's telling that I don't know anyone working a skilled trade over 45 who started later than say 30. I don't know any over 45 who would probably say they feel great either.
If you ever get yourself into serious hobby machining, get ready for the average density of all your possessions to double.
https://rainfordrestorations.com/2013/06/04/traditional-sloy...
>Students may never pick up a tool again, but they will forever have the knowledge of how to make and evaluate things with your hand and your eye and appreciate the labor of others.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloyd
Some tech skills are helpful too. I typically CAD projects so I know what size lumber and cuts need to be made.
My father was a farmer for 40 years and built a business that was supposed to be his retirement. Then the government eminent domained his water rights without any compensation, destroying his life's work, and leaving him and all the other farmers in the area high and dry.
Now I don't build anything that isnt cashed out immediately.
The funny thing about democracies is other votes count too. 99% of the population is happy with the outcome because they get more water water and don't have any person rights they feel are put at risk.
I'm guessing the state figured most of the farmers in their 60s can't afford legal challenge when there primary financial assets were cut out from under them and if they do, it can be tied up in the courts until most of them die. That's how it seems to be playing out anyways.
I already had a few advantages going in: a year of drafting in high school, a year of computer drafting in college (mind you the tools were long dead); the ability to think in parametrics; courses in engineering to go with my physics degree; and just being a general geek. Like a maniac, I took all but one class they offered.
Probably one of the happiest times of my life, scampering around the shop and churning out trinkets for friends and family, making weird art projects for myself.
I have a few hobbies that are somewhat physical (whittling, calligraphy) and the shift from purely digital work to those are very relaxing. There's something special about involving more senses that just your eyes with a job.
For the past few decades, there was a push for everyone to get a university degree, driven by a prmise that academic achievement would guarantee a prosperous life: A good salary and a high-status job.
We've seen that promise broken. Especially in the US, where student loans are a drag on people's lives. But even in Europe, where people will get degrees in things that are better taught on the job (i.e. graphic design) and still need to struggle getting internships and even badly-paid junior roles.
I think it's been known for a long time that you can make money in the crafts, often more than you do in entry-level office jobs. But I think an important part of making the crafts more popular is status.
If your dad is a lawyer and your mom is a professor, you might not get encouragement if you want to be a welder, chef or roofer.
There needs to be more respect for those professions. They, too should get respect for learning a complex craft and mastering it.
Low supply?
> “There’s a huge need for people in CTE fields,” Kaine told me Friday. “The old stigma about CTE, or vocational education, that’s really disappearing and there’s kind of a renaissance going on.”
Big demand?
This would imply that machinists, etc., are enjoying a big surge in salary. Is this true?
Yeah that's what happened. They became "unfashionable", rather than hopelessly precarious due to structural economic changes.
What bothers me is gatekeeping the capital to do this, as well as the "apprenticeship" requirements to get your gen con license.
It would solve two problems simultaneously - something laid off engineers can easily do (they are problem solvers and fast learners).
I'm building my own house, and it's ridiculously easy (not all parts). I hope to build more after and sell them.
House building is not that difficult. And literally zero of the licensed trades (plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc) cannot be learned by a smart and motivated person in 1-2 months at most, instead of the multiple years (each, nonconcurrently) required for apprentice, journeyman, and eventual master licensing.
I've built three houses. I subbed out the work that was required by local regs (this varies by jurisdiction and year), and did the work myself, with inspection where available, wherever possible. Not difficult at all.
Anyone can and should be able to build their own house (I have done so myself), but if you ask for someone else to depend on your work, you had better prove it.
They are awarded based on years of service as an apprentice and a journeyman to a master, who is effectively your pimp until you become a master yourself.
Guess who certifies master tradesmen? They guy who prefers to have you working for him instead of competing with him. It's a racket. There's some logic behind it, but less than you'd think.
Becoming fully competent to plumb or wire a house takes a few weeks of instruction. If that. It's just not difficult to become competent. It takes a bit longer to get fast though!
I would fully support a certification process that allows you to demonstrate your competence in a written and practical exam in front of experts who have no stake in your success or failure. But that is not the way it works.
(Actually, there are a few programs where you can do this for some work that would otherwise require a formal license. Lead paint remediation, of low or medium-risk surfaces, is one of them.)
The further east and urban you go, the more rules you have to follow. This is, ultimately, sensible.
And it means that you do not know how to do electrical or plumbing work.
That's fine! But take it from someone who does: it does not take years of training to be excellent at it. Household electric and plumbing is extremely straightforward. Commercial can be much more complicated! And if you run into any semi-complicated stuff, like say a bathroom below grade where you need a toilet to flush uphill ... you learn it from the vast resources available, or you call a plumber for that bit. Simple.
Similarly, if you ever are not 100% certain of your own work, you call a licensed tradesman for the inspection. Note that this is not always allowed -- but where it is, everyone agrees that it makes total sense.
The most complicated thing is knowing the code, which boils down to just a handful of simple rules for residential stuff. Most importantly: look it up, don't guess. There's a right way to do everything, and it's never the hard way. There is very little variance or judgement call involved, the code is quite clear and specific.
Doing it right might take additional materials or time though, and that's fine.
Which I think is partly held up essentially by the "dodgy tradie" stories which are routinely passed around but get re-interpreted as "it's very easy to do <obvious stupid thing>" when the stupid thing is something like "don't do a wire run from 10 short pieces of wire you have lying around" or "PVC pipes need to be glued together to not leak".
It's the edge cases that are time consuming to learn. Understanding each case that could come up on different types of builds, in different scenarios, is an important skill to be a proficient electrician that can walk onto a unknown job site, complete it, and leave at the end of the day. It makes sense if you are running commercial job sites where time is money. It makes sense if there is a failure or upgrade needed on an operational structure.
If someone is smart and time is less critical, it is only moderately slower to learn the edge cases as they come up.
I did the gas, electricity, and plumbing install for my Mom's kitchen, and I did it to the State building code. I did it in one week and with no prior training.
In a lot of ways, the certification process for contractors mirrors that of our white collar workers. Someone might spend 4 years getting a computer engineering degree, learn a dozen languages, study English and art, only to code basic tasks in CSS.
Even simpler, barbers don't really need a 1000 hours of certified coursework to do a buzz cut, or even your 50 most common haircuts.
Same with electrical. Yeah, you can learn the basics but only experience is going to get you to do it right. And two months ain't enough experience to do all the new construction electrical for someone else's house. Doing it for yourself is fine because only you have to deal with what you didn't do completely right when you didn't know any better.
But you're wrong about the experience required. Everything you do in a house gets done repeatedly. A modicum of code knowledge, a good reference book, some simple math to calculate loads, some skill with power tools, and a lot of patience. No problem.
There are zero surprises in a house, the requirements are 100% predictable. Get it inspected, of course, because QA is always beneficial. Be careful, but don't be afraid of it, it's not magical or malevolent.
The whole point of codes and inspections is to eliminate thinking and turn the subjective into the qualitative.
You can learn to do competent, inspection-passing, code-compliant, and never-problem-causing electrical work, adequate for wiring a full house, in less than a week.
From your other comments, I think we agree. Apologies if I've misunderstood your points.
Doing the wiring in a new house (yours or otherwise) -> easy.
The fact that you're making a mountain out of a mole hill her really just screams that you have no experience with ANY of this. The stuff that's hard to "do right" is the stuff that you get one shot at (like concrete) or stuff where the feedback loop is very long (it may take decades to find out that your poor flashing job is letting water in and ruining your siding). The stuff the internet likes to screech about like plumbing and electrical and framing are way easier to validate the quality of because you can test them or because problems will become obvious quickly.
I would generalize that to "locating and safely fixing problems inside closed walls or ceilings -> sometimes hard".
Sometimes easy still, but that is where things get complicated, and sometimes dangerous. I've found dead-ended intermittent lines left inside walls without any attempt at proper termination, for example. This is how fires start.
Doing your own electrical work exposes you to the lazy errors made by other people in the past. You learn not to be those people (some of whom were licensed electricians).
I personally would want a person that is being paid very well that oversaw every nail, every wire going into that house.
But :shrug: I don't mind you not being my customer. I will give my meticulously installed kiln dried studs/plates, zip sheathing, rockwool, interior rockwool, exterior rockwool jacket and james hardie fireproof house to someone that appreciates it!
Sometimes you also see tradesman do this during down seasons, as it gives them a steady flow of stuff to do that they can complete almost as slow as they like then flip when done.
The buyer likely won't have any insight into the personal motivations of the builder, or what bothers them.
My dad (Navy electrician) built his own house with help from a Navy friend (carpenter). It sold a half-century later for 5 times what it cost him. The stucco exterior (whoever did it) lasted with zero fails in a climate that varied from -30F to +90F.
A person who builds their own house will care about what they built. A specialised team will care to get paid and know all the corners to cut to get the job done to the minimum standard.
What kind of house do you want? One built robustly with care? Or one built to minimum standard? Not everyone wants minimum standard.
As some of the other "I build my own house" commenters here have mentioned, nothing stops them from hiring people when they want and specifying higher than code minimums. Building your own house doesn't mean you have to do absolutely everything even when it doesn't make sense because someone else has the tools to do it better. But it does mean they have the choice.
I never said "construction not done diy = bad quality". I tried to say: "tradesperson work has incentive to meet code and move on, as opposed to diy which has incentive to build something that person wants to live with". My attempt to say that clearly didn't work well. Good thing my trade is not wordsmithing.
If you want to bring up "bad quality" ... like all humans there are dodgy elements in any group. I'm sure a whole forum of war stories of dumb shit tradespeople have done can come to light - there's probably a subreddit. Maybe all the people you work with are legends in their craft. However my point is not the skill level - it is the structure of motivations.
A person building their own house thinks differently about the house than tradespeople coming and going.
Asides: 1. where do you think DIY builders come from? Everyone I know doing/did it either is or was a tradesperson. They decided to stop going job to job for someone else and put more time into generalising so they can make something for themselves.
2. how old do you think I am? I would hope the "tradesman before I was born" could be retired before they got to their 70's. I guess some people like to keep moving and work is as good as anything.
If you do not derive value from that sort of thing, then what point are you trying to make?
I have no desire to sew my own clothes, but I'm guessing you are not interested in hearing me talk more about that?
Where I live, Western Australia, maybe 2% of adults that I know have been actively involved in building and or major rennovations of a house.
There are a lot of people here with serious trades backgrounds, many with rural backgrounds that'll tackle anything.
People here even build their own aircraft and quirky ground effect flying machines.
I've built three houses; two significant renno's (jacking up and replacing major structural elements), and one from foundations upwards.
My father's played a major role in three full builds (he's not a "builder by trade", just a former farm hand, shearer, five year navy, mining foreman, etc. type).
> You are part of a tiny elite group of people.
Still, not that hard.
I think most people would run into the most trouble trying to follow code with electrical, plumbing, and HVAC. You can frame 95% of a house the same way as a 120 year old house, but if you go beyond 15 years then all those utilities have had constantly evolving regulations and design constraints and just because you saw it in a dozen other houses doesn't mean it will pass this years code.
OK, definitely do not build a house until you do a little bit of research on the topic.
But if the topic interests you, it's worth looking into. It's not nearly as complicated or arcane as you imagine.
In the meantime though, you seem to have very strong opinions without the knowledge to support them. If you do find a receptive audience for that kind of thing somewhere, it will be to the detriment of all involved.
I had a TechShop membership for years, and a TheShop membership after that, right up to the bankruptcy. The gym business model doesn't fit. Gyms work because people only show up a few hours per week, max. A gym can have 10x to 30x its capacity in members. For a maker space, people show up more, and it's only 2x - 3x.
I went to the wake for maker spaces, a small meeting in Silicon Valley. Some guy from TechShop made excuses. The guy who bought Heathkit went on about their retro kits. Then we all went home.
There are still some maker spaces, but they're mostly 3D printers, sewing machines, and paper-folding, not lathes and mills. They're much more kid-oriented, with kids doing prescribed projects.
Others in 2025: https://makerfaire.com/upcoming-faires/
There's much ink spilled on civil rights and people who fight to gain opportunity, acceptance into society, good educations, employment and leadership.
And perhaps it's not so easy for the privilged folk to accept displacement or disenfranchisement in favor of in-groups. Because if equity and justice are done, every winner is balanced by a loser, because you cannot magically grow an economy to expand rights and include everyone, even with stable resources and game hasn't changed. It didn't escape my notice that there were murmurings of fleeing the city, prepping for disaster, going full granola and off the grid and kiss this world goodbye soon. Are we in the Matrix? Mom's basement with a kitkat bar? Are all the birds replaced by machines?
I've been studying a bit of philosophy and history and seeing threads that just can't be denied, where the struggle for power and privilege is claiming casualties as abortion, addiction, mental illness, homelessness and unemployment. It seems absurd to propose that we're a society enslaved by machines, or Life Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness aren't as equitable as we'd hoped.
But I am taking sick and perverse pleasures in simply hand-decorating Thank-You notes with a fistful of magic markers, and folding up paper and doing other things in meatspace, things that were unthinkable when my hands were welded to the Super NES controls or Type M Keyboard.
But say a Darkroom workshop you cannot easy do miller etc. A republican group is hard to get some social … a middle of the road killed by both sides …
How to accommodate and work with difference is a question. Both AI and non-AI … the key is the and part.
Rather than following the threads back and forth to see that it's all a journey in space and time, and I had no idea about 1,000km away, much less 80 years ago in my own state!
Every well paid engineer or manager will pay somebody a lot of money to make water flow again or have lights and internet working asap. That’s obvious.
When I invite my ex colleagues and they offer to help in my under-construction-house it’s very sad to see a young guy lying flat after 60-90 minutes of hard work.
The real question is "what roles are going to be in a good position to capture value from all the wealth generation?". As far as people selling labour are concerned it could be the trades.
Gilbert Houngbo, Director-General of the International Labour Organization did an interesting interview with DW today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbQvcnugVc
It IS a huge shame to see wood and machine shop programs disappear. Even if you're not "blue collar" or a "craftsperson" there are massive benefits to learning the processes of working with your hands. At my undergrad architecture school you had to learn to use the shop in your first weeks. If you were familiar with the tools you had to go through the training and get re-certified. If you were never required to use them before, now you were. But power tools are such a time saver for always busy architecture students that you just did it anyway. Even if somehow you managed to avoid it you were still required to make physical models which requires precision, attention to detail, and care around sharp tools. In the 2000's there was a move toward an entirely digital pedagogy, but the pendulum has swung back - in architectural education today we require our students to make physical models. Many professors are less passionate about making still require a final model to "prove" your ideas. But as someone who bangs on endlessly about the lessons to be learned from craft I make my students use them as a constant and iterative process of prototyping and testing ideas.
There are some things that absolutely cannot be understood without having to struggle through how to represent them in real materials with real properties, in space, and subjected to gravity. Hand craft makes you plan your actions carefully - even in the small. There is no undo button on a hundred dollar piece of burl walnut. And unless you learn to always be constantly aware of your body and movements (heck, let's intellectualize and call it proprioception) a chop saw can get a little... choppy. Understanding that "let the machine do the work" is simultaneously safety advice AND a philosophical masterstroke is sublime.
I never took a shop or vo-tech class, but I grew up around machines and craft. My father was a union machinist making jet engines (and tooling), only retiring from poor health right after hitting his 30 years. His stepdad got him in to the trade, and was a career machinist turned manager. My dad's half brothers were gearheads - one has bought, revived, and sold literally more cars than he can count with nothing more than a vo-tech degree (but his first flip when he was 14). His day job is in machining consumables sales. His home shop would put most of his clients to shame. My dad's other half brother has an Associates in Electrical Engineering and has always been in high demand as an embedded and controls systems programmer. I changed my parents' oil for the first time solo when I was eight (for reference I also wrote my first simple computer program when I was seven). We all grew up working closely with machines. It was just what we did. To this day I'm the one in any situation who winds up fixing anything wonky. I can't explain it beyond "sometimes machines just speak to me." Sounds ridiculous but it's just a process of understanding through exposure how things normally should work and how to spot the things that are out of whack. Once you can understand the cues these complex machine systems want to give you it provides insight into ones you've never worked with before...
That's all to say even in the most intellectual modes there are lessons to be learned from understanding how to use (and not use!!!) machines. The death of shop class is unfortunate and short-sighted. Everyone across the political spectrum is guilty, all together for the death or flight of the industries that demanded these classes in the first place. I don't believe there's anything -intrinsically- redemptive about understanding these processes. (Knowing lots of building tradesmen will immediately put lie to the more over-the-top notions in the article.) But the ability to mediate between your brain and the outcomes of physical processes that comes with machine work is exciting (even joyful yes) and filled with lessons far beyond learning to face mill a plate or lathe a precise cylinder, etc.
i don't want to diminish the risk of injuries, but in big part it's also a question of lifestyle. every once in a while even programmers need to lift something beyond their current capacity... and even craftsmen can become couch potatos who only lift at work when they must... and because of that lose touch with their limits.
(programmer here who does metalworks as a hobby)
Edit: Actually reading the article now, and...
> One slip and you get a hand or foot bitten off. A jack slipped once and smashed the side of his jaw, requiring $20,000 in dental surgery. “I kept working that day, though.”
That's insane and just toxic. I feel like so much of this "working with your hands" is joined with this idea of making people "tougher" because that's intrinsically better.
Edit 2: And this:
> You know, I’m more proud of being a journeyman bricklayer than being a college biology graduate. To know how to work with your hands is a great gift, good for your body and your heart.
Why? I get this is a politician saying this, but I see little reason why one should be mythologized more than the other.