As someone who suffers from depression, I can anecdotally attest to the phenomenon of "Mind after Midnight" [0] mentioned in the study. And I'm a self-confessed night owl. It's remarkable how things just fall apart in your mind at night, and just go back to normal the next morning (most of the time).
On the other hand there is significant improvement in many people with depression at night. In the morning however life looks dark again. Some argue that this is an indicator for a different subtype of depression.
doubled112 36 days ago [-]
I do get happier at night, but as far as I can tell, it is because I'm finally by myself to be left alone.
When the sun rises, so do the number of requests.
Schiendelman 36 days ago [-]
As a PM, I have a recommendation:
1) Take time away from devices and notifications. Potentially also turn your notifications off entirely and start checking only at scheduled times (or periods within your SLA if you're supporting people).
2) Try early mornings. I started getting up at 4:30, lifting, and meditating before ever looking at tech. In many cases I still look at my plan for the day before others work!
doubled112 36 days ago [-]
Thanks.
The notifications are off but the SLA is still “available immediately at all times”. What a clause in the contract!
It isn’t as bad as it sounds since I have a ton of freedom as long as the work gets done, but it’s still written down.
I tend to start about an hour before the rest of my team regardless.
The wife and kids don't quit either. First words I hear are usually “can I have” or “we need to”.
Waking up early they hear me and the problems simply begin earlier. They won’t be young forever.
Schiendelman 35 days ago [-]
Ahh, having a family makes sense too. That sounds like a really important conversation to have though - making sure you and your wife each help each other have your own alone time.
bbarnett 37 days ago [-]
That sounds like a glucose thing. Try eating a piece of toast, or a few nuts, or some small other snack.
Sleep will return in an hour or so.
(suggestions may not carry to others, but why not try?)
southernplaces7 37 days ago [-]
These studies get tedious with their variable, often contradictory and frequently poorly-structured methodologies.
One sees some that claim night owls as abnormally intelligent and creative people, and then others claiming the above as this title does. All possibly failing to take into account that a whole pile of coinciding factors in certain people who stay up late may be responsible for poor mental health, while not necessarily being related to the hours in which one sleeps.
llamaimperative 37 days ago [-]
Such is the nature of science.
bbarnett 37 days ago [-]
I'd change to "social sciences". Issues parent mentioned seem to be the rule with soft sciences research, the exception with hard sciences.
maxmynter95 36 days ago [-]
The study in question is a medical study.
There are too many replicating findings to call it “the rule” with social sciences. It’s more that social systems are inherently chaotic, context dependent, multi causal, etc.
Thats why they don’t idealize as well.
llamaimperative 36 days ago [-]
No it’s not.
huepfebein 36 days ago [-]
> "Maybe there are fewer social constraints late at night because you have fewer people around who are awake," Zeitzer said. That is especially true in places like the United States and the United Kingdom, where people tend to be more isolated in the evenings. In a Mediterranean culture, where nights are more gregarious, staying up might even be good for mental health.
This is the only note on cultural norms in the entire article. Yet I wonder, how you can look at sleeping patterns and mental health without also considering the broader societal norms, especially in a (typical Western?) society where rising with the sun is seen as a virtue.
funnym0nk3y 36 days ago [-]
It has long been known that eveningness correlates with various mental health conditions.
In addition sleep is used as a marker for mental state.
Usually depression improves in the evening, sometimes very specifically at dawn. So does anxiety and OCD for some. To the point where there are little to no symptoms. In the morning however, the illness is back in full force.
There are numerous studies on the involvement of the circadian clock in depression and bipolar disorder. Many agents treating those conditions alter the circadian clock.
pen2l 36 days ago [-]
Interested in reading more about this, that symptoms are more aggressive in the morning, can you refer to studies if you were thinking of some in particular?
funnym0nk3y 36 days ago [-]
Unfortunately I don't have specific studies at hand right now. However depression was classified as melancholic and atypical. Melancholic depression is marked by pronounced diurnal mood variation among other things. There was one study that measured negative and positive affect in MDD and healthy controls. It was shown that the mood variation is related to positive affect in MDD.
That pattern inspired a short term treatment for MDD where sleep is limited or completely omitted. That has a very pronounced antidepressant effect in many and can even trigger mania.
Also, I have seen lots of cases among friends and family that show that behaviour.
EDIT: To clarify: This is true in a subset of patients. It is not a necessary condition.
bdavbdav 36 days ago [-]
This was one of those things I’ve always just assumed to be true - bed earlier, wake earlier always seemed to be the better pathway to the mind of dynamic life I want, and that dynamic life seems to be a good pathway to better mental health.
jokoon 36 days ago [-]
I had sleeping problem as a teen
Now I have very strict discipline when it comes to sleep.
Once it's midnight, I decide it's time to go to bed, even if I'm not tired.
There are still few times when i go at 1am or 2am, but it's rare.
jug 37 days ago [-]
I only skimmed the text, but wonder if this study had controls for their social lives and mental health. These behaviors are also on their own indicative of depression, because it often interferes with sleep patterns. It becomes a causation/correlation issue?
layer8 37 days ago [-]
The article states: “They also tested the possibility that it was poor mental health causing people to stay up late, not the other way around. They tracked a subset of participants who had no previous diagnosis of a mental disorder for the next eight years. During that time, night owls who slept late were the most likely to develop a mental health disorder.”
s1mplicissimus 37 days ago [-]
A diagnosis requires crossing a certain threshold of suffering to even get diagnosed, also stigma is a reason many people still refrain from seeking diagnosis. the night owls might just not yet have been diagnosed at the time of this study
[0] https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/network-physiology/arti...
When the sun rises, so do the number of requests.
1) Take time away from devices and notifications. Potentially also turn your notifications off entirely and start checking only at scheduled times (or periods within your SLA if you're supporting people).
2) Try early mornings. I started getting up at 4:30, lifting, and meditating before ever looking at tech. In many cases I still look at my plan for the day before others work!
The notifications are off but the SLA is still “available immediately at all times”. What a clause in the contract!
It isn’t as bad as it sounds since I have a ton of freedom as long as the work gets done, but it’s still written down.
I tend to start about an hour before the rest of my team regardless.
The wife and kids don't quit either. First words I hear are usually “can I have” or “we need to”.
Waking up early they hear me and the problems simply begin earlier. They won’t be young forever.
Sleep will return in an hour or so.
(suggestions may not carry to others, but why not try?)
One sees some that claim night owls as abnormally intelligent and creative people, and then others claiming the above as this title does. All possibly failing to take into account that a whole pile of coinciding factors in certain people who stay up late may be responsible for poor mental health, while not necessarily being related to the hours in which one sleeps.
There are too many replicating findings to call it “the rule” with social sciences. It’s more that social systems are inherently chaotic, context dependent, multi causal, etc.
Thats why they don’t idealize as well.
This is the only note on cultural norms in the entire article. Yet I wonder, how you can look at sleeping patterns and mental health without also considering the broader societal norms, especially in a (typical Western?) society where rising with the sun is seen as a virtue.
Usually depression improves in the evening, sometimes very specifically at dawn. So does anxiety and OCD for some. To the point where there are little to no symptoms. In the morning however, the illness is back in full force.
There are numerous studies on the involvement of the circadian clock in depression and bipolar disorder. Many agents treating those conditions alter the circadian clock.
That pattern inspired a short term treatment for MDD where sleep is limited or completely omitted. That has a very pronounced antidepressant effect in many and can even trigger mania.
Also, I have seen lots of cases among friends and family that show that behaviour.
EDIT: To clarify: This is true in a subset of patients. It is not a necessary condition.
Now I have very strict discipline when it comes to sleep.
Once it's midnight, I decide it's time to go to bed, even if I'm not tired.
There are still few times when i go at 1am or 2am, but it's rare.