The company is over a decade old and was not cheap to use, I don't think they could have suddenly run out of money as customers typically pay upfront and are in long term contracts. Could it be staffing issues? Corporate misbehavior? Data loss? Ransomware? Has a member of their team gone rogue? Misappropriation of funds?
We were bench customers until a few months ago, paying thousands of dollars per year for what could only be described as hundreds of dollars worth of service. The service was not very good so moving away was an easy choice but on a per-customer basis they must be making money hand over fist.
I expect we'll find out more eventually, hopefully employees will leak some insight. For now, this is inexplicable.
ezekg 23 days ago [-]
I'd guess staffing issues, since my bookkeeper would change every month. I'm still not sure how they couldn't afford to hire better staff, though. You're right that it could be something nefarious.
Where did you move to?
lotsofpulp 23 days ago [-]
> I'm still not sure how they couldn't afford to hire better staff,
Because they never figured out how to automate enough of the process to scale revenue up without scaling expenses.
All the investments in these VC funded companies is a bet that the companies will develop automation that will allow them to not hire staff, period (relative to the growth in customers).
aitchnyu 20 days ago [-]
Which companies have actually succeeded at becoming a profitable and break-even human-less $ESTABLISHED_INDUSTRY?
encoderer 23 days ago [-]
Ah sorry to hear you were caught up in this.
Cronitor uses pilot. It was a little crazy at first but the last year+ feels like they have stabilized operations.
beepbopboopp 22 days ago [-]
Im betting secured debt was called. Given the "instant" nature, it likely means a debt covenant was broken, that is one of the few things that can shut a company down in 24 hours.
Doubley so if the business isnt really profitable.
theanonymousone 22 days ago [-]
Sorry but is there some source about this for a lame person?
conductr 22 days ago [-]
I’m a CFO and was a layperson on this until I started having to deal with it. I don’t have any resources other than my work experience with a few companies that have debt covenants. First, they can be rather arbitrary as they’re literally made up for each deal and meant to align somewhat to the growth story that’s being “sold” to the lender during the debt issuance; they’re negotiated between lender/borrower so take a lot of different shapes. The ones I’ve seen are usually 1) a reporting requirement 2) monthly/quarterly/annually frequency is negotiable 3) usually have some financial metric or growth metric that the company should be hitting by a certain time. So, I’ve seen EBITDA margin, gross margin, cash flow, and revenue growth stats as these metrics. But again, it could be anything.
As GP said, usually if the covenant isn’t being met but the company is profitable or has a good excuse the lender will not call the debt. They’ll work with you. I’ve seen tons of flexibility here from lenders. Usually the lender will start having more questions about the strategy and current forecasts if the metrics are underperforming and you’ll (CEO/CFO) will have to start being a bit more transparent than required or maybe just more frequent check in meetings to discuss status. In most cases, if you actually have a good story and have a healthy partnership the lender doesn’t want to call the loan and wants to see how they can help (within tolerance) get you back on track.
The moment the lender calls the loan typically, in startup land, there’s no cash reserves to pay off the debt and so the company is instantly insolvent and operations cease. This is why the lender is flexible, calling is typically a nuke for the business. But also, it can be a bit of a stop/loss. Meaning the cash in the bank can at least be recouped.
beepbopboopp 22 days ago [-]
Bravo, I couldn't have explained it better.
cutemonster 22 days ago [-]
Thanks for such a nice explanation!
lotsofpulp 22 days ago [-]
One standardized metric used as a covenant is the debt service coverage ratio, especially for commercial real estate. The lender gets to monitor business performance in almost real time, and if it goes below what the borrower agreed to, they can force a renegotiation of terms or call the loan.
Why do you think it wasn't possible for them to run out of money? It's not like a 10 year old business is immune to failure.
The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
aimazon 23 days ago [-]
Anything is possible and running out of money is the most probable explanation but it seems so hard for this type of business to get itself into this type of situation. Customers pay thousands of dollars per year, usually upfront. That’s the type of revenue predictability that most of us would love for our businesses because it makes forecasting so much easier. They must have known months ago that they were running out of money. Failing to become sustainable and going through layoffs is one thing, shutting down overnight with zero warning is another. But yes, you’re probably right, it’s just hard to imagine how they could have imploded like this.
BehindBlueEyes 23 days ago [-]
And yet, it's as simple as money ran out. They never turned a profit, investors ran out, the last round of funding was a loan with strings attached that led to a bunch of cost cutting and other poor decisions that explain the poor service quality.
A few staff guessed it might close 3 weeks ago at best though everything was very uncertain, but most of the accountants probably didn't see this coming either.
source: I know a few former employees.
bryanrasmussen 23 days ago [-]
>but most of the accountants probably didn't see this coming either.
I would expect this was the kind of thing an accountant should see coming though.
BehindBlueEyes 23 days ago [-]
Not sure if sarcasm, but in case it is not: in theory accountants could see this coming but most benchmates were junior book keepers, with no visibility into their employer's financials.
datavirtue 22 days ago [-]
If I can't see the books I move on. The only reason people hide books is because they are bad. You can't expect a bunch of mushrooms to help you grow a company. Employees deserve to keep tabs on the financial health of the company.
Last company I was at was an ESOP. Talk about a scam. They are under no obligation to let employees monitor the health of their "retirement plan." It's a tax shelter for business owners who want to retire. Coming from a company that had open books I had assumed that ESOP members would have some rights, nope.
Having left that shit show for a startup I'm getting regular financial health and funding updates constantly.
Don't be a mushroom.
cutemonster 22 days ago [-]
> If I can't see the books I move on
Are you saying that as a software developer, or you work with other things?
toomuchtodo 23 days ago [-]
There’s an accountant shortage, so I imagine it wasn’t hard for those folks to prepare to bail, if they did.
adastra22 22 days ago [-]
Running out of money right at year end, just when accounting revenue is likely to pick up is a bit sus.
porter 23 days ago [-]
what service did you move to?
yolo2122 23 days ago [-]
Founder/Former CEO Ian Crosby's post about the Bench closure:
Nitter's been dead for about a year at this point. I'm pretty sure any Nitter instance still running is using some abstract method and not the actual Nitter system.
KomoD 22 days ago [-]
It's the same Nitter, but using real accounts instead of the "guest accounts" that were used previously.
"Guest accounts" were accounts you could generate to access Twitter without actually signing up, but then Elon Musk killed them so then Nitter was basically declared dead because most people don't want to spend time making tons of actual accounts to run a Nitter instance and then Elon Musk also made the ratelimits stricter so you needed even more accounts.
Some of the bigger Nitter instances used thousands of guest accounts.
coldtrait 22 days ago [-]
Yea I don't think there's an alternative after Elon made changes to Twitter's API
joshuahedlund 22 days ago [-]
I don’t know how they do it but xcancel works pretty good
I used to use a site called Nitter for the same reason, but it stopped working. I think X/Twitter changed something.
cebert 23 days ago [-]
[flagged]
LightBug1 22 days ago [-]
I'll re-sign up to that shithole when hell freezes over. You're welcome.
Banditoz 22 days ago [-]
Nitter also offers better UX for those who just want to read a Twitter thread and not interact with it. It's been like that even before the Musk acquisition.
LightBug1 22 days ago [-]
Thanks, does nitter still work? Thought it was running into trouble so used xcancel with ok results.
However, I've found that 'the only winning move has been not to play'. Anytime I venture back it's like my psyche entering the matrix and always coming off worse.
I repeat, it really is a ... anyway.
bdangubic 23 days ago [-]
[flagged]
trg2 23 days ago [-]
[flagged]
bdangubic 23 days ago [-]
[flagged]
jrflowers 23 days ago [-]
> if your life is so empty you have to talk about elon you need to re-evaluate your life choices
This post, that you’ve typed up and posted online, for all to see, is about your opinion of Elon Musk
Dylan16807 23 days ago [-]
It is not.
jrflowers 23 days ago [-]
Yes it is. If they had written “if you’re posting about hamburgers you need to reevaluate your life” that would be a post expressing their opinion about hamburgers.
Dylan16807 23 days ago [-]
No, it would not be. Their opinion about Z and their opinion about people that care too much about Z are different things.
Your post above is a failed attempt at a petty gotcha.
jrflowers 22 days ago [-]
> Your post above is a failed attempt at a petty gotcha.
Aside from the poster I was talking to not appearing to agree with you (they immediately made another Elon post), no, it isn’t. If upon seeing the phrase “I don’t like hamburger” I am swept up with an urge to dunk and say “re evaluate your life choices for talking about hamburger” it is very obvious that I’ve taken my time to tell you that I have strong feelings about hamburger and take issue with the position taken, not the subject matter.
Seeing as they then wrote “elon hate is real” moments after my response, it is doubly clear that the issue isn’t mention of the guy but rather any negative mention of the guy.
If I go out of my way to police any negative mention of something, that is a direct expression of how I value that thing.
(The post has since been edited to “obsession with elon is real”, which, yes, it is. Some folks absolutely cannot scroll past that name without it sparking an urge to dunk)
23 days ago [-]
bdangubic 23 days ago [-]
obsession with elon is real… :)
jrflowers 23 days ago [-]
This post too
wslh 20 days ago [-]
With all due respect to the founder, it's impossible to know, even in hindsight, whether things in a startup would have been similar, better, or worse. This is not an endorsement to firing the CEO or saying that the board was capable in any way. This founder or CEO trap is more common that we think about. It is not only a Steve Jobs story. Founders know that giving equity and power to others include risks.
ttul 23 days ago [-]
I advise caution in believing his statements to be true, particularly about Bench’s board and investors. The truth will live in their financial statements, which no doubt will be revealed in bankruptcy proceedings in the coming months.
Ian, I emailed you a couple years ago when I felt Bench had become worse and worse for customers. I was sad to discover that you’d left and I felt the difference was definitely attributable to your departure. I switched providers shortly thereafter.
So, speaking as a former customer, the tragedy and timeline you mention pass the sniff test for me. So glad your next venture has been going well for you!
iwcrosby 22 days ago [-]
Thanks Marc. Wishing you the best in your ventures too!
ttul 21 days ago [-]
I’d like to clarify - and ought to have done above - that I’m not saying you’re lying in your Tweets. Just that the story of any business failure is often more nuanced than “investors are bad”. And that story may be revealed in court filings as I’m sure creditors will be going to court to get their money back in the coming months.
IAmGraydon 23 days ago [-]
Hi Ian. Sorry to see this happen to the company you founded. Can you say what the board's strategy was that conflicted with your vision?
22 days ago [-]
23 days ago [-]
propter_hoc 23 days ago [-]
[flagged]
kstrauser 23 days ago [-]
Pray tell, how was he possibly supposed to help the customers of the company he was fired from 3 years ago?
I found his posts interesting. I was a Bench customer for several years until we sold our business, and I appreciate the background information about the bullet we dodged.
edoceo 23 days ago [-]
[flagged]
boxed 23 days ago [-]
> every good ship can get a new captain and sail on. If not, the problem isn't the sailors it's the captain (who set the ship before the fall).
You're seriously claiming a bad leader can't destroy a company/organization/project/country?
mbrameld 22 days ago [-]
You're arguing a different point. The old CEO claims it's his absence that caused the failure, not the presence of the new CEO. You're arguing that it's the presence of the new CEO that caused the failure. GP is pointing out that if the absence of the old CEO is what caused the company to fail as the old CEO claims, and not the actions of the new CEO, then it wasn't in good shape to start with.
boxed 22 days ago [-]
Ah. That's a bit more sane for sure. Although with some big caveats. A founder can be crucial for a long time, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a tradeoff. You don't want to spend time operationalizing the business before it's stable for example. That's just a waste of time. The board very well could be mistaken on which stage the business is in.
edoceo 21 days ago [-]
Glad someone got it.
boxed 20 days ago [-]
Doesn't make a ton of sense though. A bad captain can steer into the coastline and kill everyone.
patrickhogan1 23 days ago [-]
Bad investors and a dysfunctional board can destroy a company. When late-stage investors push to fire the CEO, they often do so to install a puppet CEO who will give them greater control over the board. This allows them to prioritize financial decisions that serve their own interests, often at the expense of other shareholders, such as early employees, whom they disregard.
benatkin 23 days ago [-]
This in the response made me cringe a little:
> I wanted to continue with what was working and with what our partners had signed on to distribute.
How does he know it was working? He says it so matter of factly.
And that’s what this big-mad comes down to.
patrickhogan1 23 days ago [-]
You make a fair point. I would have liked him to elaborate more on the potential acquisition that was declined.
However, he mentioned they just raised $60 million. If his approach wasn’t working, why would anyone invest that amount? And if the plan was to fire him, given that his vote was required, wouldn’t it have been more transparent to say upfront: “If you reject the acquisition and opt for this $60 million investment instead, we’re going to fire you”?
IAmGraydon 23 days ago [-]
How does he know? He was the CEO. I'm guessing that he had access to the company's metrics.
benatkin 23 days ago [-]
Metrics alone don't tell you if a strategy is working in the long term. It was no doubt a highly informed opinion, but still an opinion.
thayne 23 days ago [-]
> every good ship can get a new captain and sail on
If the new captain is good. But a bad captian can sink any ship, unless the crew is willing and able to mutinee to prevent it.
jeanlucas 23 days ago [-]
> "this is exactly what happened"
In a direct reply to the thread. Well, it is confirming the original thread.
rvba 23 days ago [-]
Start-ups by nature are not good ships.
yolo2122 23 days ago [-]
I agree that the financial statements will be a key artifact of truth + I cannot speak to the validity of the statements made by Ian as I have no context or knowledge of Bench outside of my experience of being a long time customer.
However I can, albeit anecdotally from my perspective, say that I felt there was a marked difference in Bench's quality/service/responsiveness/performance/etc about 3yrs ago. This aligns with the timeline given by the former CEO in his post for his departure.
conradwa 23 days ago [-]
I can’t imagine the frustration you’re going through if you’re a Bench user.
Paying for a service and not getting what you expect, especially when it comes to your taxes is no joke.
Instead of having to start from scratch, our team at Kick is moved quickly to build these resources to help prior Bench customers:
1. Free Bench migration
2. Free 2024 Bookkeeping review calls
3. Free Daily Live Q&As (coming soon)
We’re moving fast and sharing additional resources and updates in real time here:
Other resources on the way include a Tax Extension Guide and Accountant Directory to make sure folks get a soft landing is this difficult time.
If you're running into issues, my email me at conrad@kick.co and I’ll do the best I can to route you to the right place.
yolo2122 23 days ago [-]
Is Kick owned by, affiliated with, or invested in by Bench in any way?
Also are any of the C-Level execs from Bench involved in Kick in any way?
conradwa 23 days ago [-]
Kick is not affiliated with Bench in any way. We've onboarded a significant number of customers from Bench onto Kick before this happened, so this may have been why were were mentioned.
We're working fast right now to try to provide resources and help Bench users migrate and will be sharing updates here: https://x.co/kickfinance
yolo2122 23 days ago [-]
Thanks Conrad however in the interest of clarity + transparency can you add some insight/details into how/why this statement came about in both the shut down email customers got today + what is currently posted on the Bench.co page?
"For continued support with your bookkeeping, we recommend exploring Kick, a modern accounting software, which has created an exclusive offer to handle your ongoing needs: kick.co/bench."
Having an "exclusive offer" listed in the initial closure communication/announcement + you having a landing page ready to go sounds like there was more to Bench just happening to mention Kick because your company has "onboarded a significant number of customers from Bench onto Kick before this happened"...
ocdtrekkie 23 days ago [-]
Hopefully you'll get an answer from Conrad, but the landing page does not mention the shutdown, so I would point out when I was comparison shopping something else recently, their website had dedicated pages to why you should choose them over each major competitor, and a switching discount is also not uncommon.
It's entirely possible this landing page is Kick's competitive offer, and Bench linked to it because it offers all the people they just screwed over by collapsing a discount.
yolo2122 23 days ago [-]
Good point! I like what I see so far in Kick. It's just given the level of pain Bench has just caused me, my businesses, and a couple very unlucky employees in my office + the financial cost = I have to make super duper sure Kick is not related to/involved with Bench in any way shape or form.
If they asked Kick to be listed as an alternative in the closure email or asked them to do a discount nbd I have no issue there. I just want the full story given Bench events.
bruce511 23 days ago [-]
I am not related to any of the parties in this dolce, but I did discontinue a product once.
On the shutdown page I listed some alternatives people could try. I found them via Google, but i didn't first try them or talk to them.
They were really just a helpful hint for folk wanting to change to get started. (The thing I was killing was a product not a service so it wasn't going to actually stop working, it was just no longer being updated.)
So, in this case, a simple statement of fact (as above) would be good enough for me. But feel free to do your due diligence.
acaloiar 22 days ago [-]
For what it's worth Google's index suggests kick.co/bench was indexed/last updated: Oct 16, 2024.
santoshalper 23 days ago [-]
This would be a great question to answer and would provide a lot of peace of mind.
ezekg 23 days ago [-]
So you're planning on offering tax filings, or just recommendations? tbh this should have been included in the notice because I wrote y'all off immediately because taxes was the main pain point Bench solved for me (electing to file as an S-Corp).
claudiogodoyb 23 days ago [-]
A friend of mine mentioned Taxfyle as an alternative to Bench. They offer free bookkeeping migration, a free Xero subscription, dedicated bookkeeper to do your books and professional tax support where they handle your taxes too. They seem like a good fit for you! Check them out here: https://www.taxfyle.com/
oxidant 23 days ago [-]
I used Bench in the past and they partnered with Taxfyle up until ~November 2023 (date of the email I received stating the partnership was ending).
The service was fine, interesting that their relationship ended just over a year ago.
rohan_shah 22 days ago [-]
I run a accountancy business in India for local customers and we are a team of more than ~10 CPA Indian equivalents. A few CFAs as well.
Let me know if anyone requires our services for Bookkeeping/Accounting.
illmasterj 21 days ago [-]
I signed up to the paid account ($125 per month), added credit card details. Your system has me on free trial until early January.
I've followed all the steps required to unlock the "sorry to hear about the Bench situation" onboarding.
Now after jumping through all the hoops, I'm told that the "free onboarding" and call only happens after the payment is processed later in January.
Why wait?
It's difficult to vet your service without this assistance. Money aside, time is of the essence here.
Really hoping to be proven wrong here, but this feels like an opportunistic sales initiative that claims to be more, but is really just a "20% off for your first year" coupon code.
nervous_jessica 22 days ago [-]
I tried to sign up for Kick and received an email that you don’t support my industry. Were an artist studio that makes and retails physical goods. Do you expect to support more industries soon?
pratt210484 20 days ago [-]
I am with an accounting firm and if u need any help will be happy to provide that.
entangledqubit 22 days ago [-]
While you have documentation about migrating to your platform, you don't seem to have any documented promises around export and leaving your service.
Also, it seems a bit odd to me that the "balance sheet" ability is two non-free pricing levels deep into your service. Isn't that a baseline expectation?
kopirgan 23 days ago [-]
Strange that kick seems to know and had time to build all this but customers didn't get any heads up?!
benatkin 23 days ago [-]
> had time to build all this
They didn't need a heads up to build this. It takes between half an hour and half a day.
22 days ago [-]
brianbreslin 20 days ago [-]
Does Kick integrate with my existing quickbooks?
acaloiar 23 days ago [-]
> We know this news is abrupt and may cause disruption, so we’re committed to helping Bench customers navigate through the transition.
No, you're not. The minimum for commitment is a longer notice.
teruakohatu 23 days ago [-]
This must terrible for small businesses. Not sure how they can even help 10k customers with transition if they have shutdown and staff are laid off.
genman1 23 days ago [-]
Not to mention all the money businesses paid in advance for services they’ll likely never get back. It’s a terrible situation—small businesses really RELY on these services, and now they’re left stranded with no clear resolution. Truly, reckless and insane.
benchdude444 23 days ago [-]
I havent been at Bench for over 6 years but it’s always been a business on the verge of failure. The main issue was just the schizophrenic strategy that was being employed. On one hand you have a software company with useful tools and services to automate bookeeping. On the other you had a division of bookeepers that would do a lot of the manual / refinement work. These tasks are at odds with one another. If you automate things you remove power from the teams who are incentivized to scale their org charts. With LLMs, Bench should have been positioned to own this space entirely, and offer a superior or equivalent product with much better margins. Bur they decided to become a services company and not a technology company.
All I can take away from it is a few lessons, because this is a pretty awful outcome for almost every party.
jegolden1 23 days ago [-]
Q - is it that the strategy was at odds? Or was it that the software wasn’t good enough yet, so expensive bookkeepers were required to supplement?
tonkatsu2222 23 days ago [-]
This is accurate (from a former employee). They were not at odds, the platform was simply never sufficient on its own to do the books. Bookkeepers were required to fill the massive gaps.
jegolden1 22 days ago [-]
Tracks with what I've seen from other companies that tout their accounting AI/automation. Never measures up .I was never a customer - did Bench overpromise to their customers directly? They always struck me as the most human from the outside.
porter 23 days ago [-]
Bench just forced me to switch to an annual contract a few days ago too. What a bunch of crooks.
Schiendelman 23 days ago [-]
Wait a minute, they pushed you into an annual contract? And now that they aren't going to perform their end of the contract?
This is fascinating. That smells like actual fraud on their part.
ttul 23 days ago [-]
I’m sure all of this will be played out in spectacular fashion in the courts of British Columbia in the coming months. Directors in BC are liable for unpaid wages to employees. No doubt they pulled the rug just in time to ensure people got their statutory severance. But beyond that, anyone hoping for more will have to get in a long line behind secured creditors. Man this sucks.
Schiendelman 23 days ago [-]
In a situation like this, someone with a contract not receiving consideration mere days after signing can probably just not pay. It would be very difficult for a company in the midst of shutting down to fight anyway.
ttul 21 days ago [-]
It would indeed be foolish to pay an invoice to a company that has very publicly declared insolvency. Many if not most contracts I have ever signed contain a provision voiding the obligations of the parties if either party is insolvent.
salomonk_mur 22 days ago [-]
Very likely paid in advance
blakebilliet 23 days ago [-]
I'd be shocked if you didn't get reimbursed. But if you don't, let me know and Afino might be able to mitigate a portion of your losses with a friendly discount. That just ain't right.
JusticeJuice 22 days ago [-]
When a company goes bankrupt, there’s a specific order that everyone who’s owed money gets paid out in. I wouldn’t be surprised if “operational costs” like refunds are low on the list.
Pikamander2 22 days ago [-]
If you paid with a credit card, consider filing a chargeback.
solidgiant 23 days ago [-]
Me too, and signed with Capchase. What are you looking to do? I'm trying to find someone at capchase, but not finding anyone...
beibeiq 23 days ago [-]
I would LinkedIn DM Capchase folks with support or customer service titles.
galenking 22 days ago [-]
I signed up with Capchase on a 12-month contract, too. Does this mean my contract is with Capchase and I’ll have to pay for the next 12 months even if I don’t get the service? Feels like a great scam. Sign a whole bunch of new customers in 12-month contracts and get paid upfront from Capchase in full and leave us paying off our debt to Capchase. I’m so frustrated.
23 days ago [-]
fudged71 23 days ago [-]
They also hired at least 20 people in the last 30 days according to LinkedIn
pplante 23 days ago [-]
Bench was a terrible service in my experience. I used it for one of my startups a few years ago. I personally invested a lot into said start-up. I checked my books and everything seemed ok. Eventually I found that they had hidden my Gusto payroll line items from view and they were no longer taken into consideration in my books. This led to a $300k shortfall from where I thought I was vs reality. Their team just shrugged when I brought the issue to their attention. The impact was immediate layoffs affecting real people who depended on me.
Sure ultimately everything falls upon me the founder. But something so common as GUSTO payroll should never be miscategorized and hidden from view.
MichaelZuo 23 days ago [-]
How could this kind of ‘hiding’ comply with GAAP standards in any scenario?
What sort of accounting books were being prepared where such a function is even needed?
cj 23 days ago [-]
When I was using Bench, they were only doing cash accounting (not GAAP). We had to switch to a different service when we switched over to accrual accounting.
dboreham 23 days ago [-]
Quick note that cash vs accrual basis accounting is orthogonal to whether the balances are correct or not. IANAA but afaik GAAP does not preclude cash basis accounting, provided the conditions where cash accounting is permitted pertain.
cj 23 days ago [-]
you’re right, although cash basis would only fly under GAAP if you earn revenue at the time of cash receipt. In other words, anyone collecting money for services not immediately rendered (any subscription service) should be accrual
SoftTalker 23 days ago [-]
I don't think cash basis precludes having a liability on the books for un-delivered services. It just means you recognize the revenue when the payment is received. Lots of small companies use cash basis because it's simpler and easier to understand. IANAA.
jwsteigerwalt 23 days ago [-]
That’s right. Financial accounting and taxation are not the same thing. Even if you are taxed on a cash basis, it’s prudent to manage your business with appropriate revenue deferrals.
cj 23 days ago [-]
I thought by definition you never have any revenue liability on the books (no unearned revenue) with cash basis because you’re recognizing the revenue on the date the cash is received. Nothing is deferred therefore no liability.
rswail 22 days ago [-]
If someone pays up front for a service to be delivered over a period, you have a liability, no matter whether on a cash or accrual basis.
The difference is that you can recognize the revenue on receipt of the cash, but at the same time, you also recognize the liability to deliver the service (based on COGS etc for the liability).
The liability reduces as you expense (and actually pay on a cash basis) the cost of supplying the service.
At least that's my non-accountant idea of how it works.
I may be completely wrong.
willcipriano 23 days ago [-]
[flagged]
dang 23 days ago [-]
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
What gave you that impression? I always consulted my financials when making decisions. Unfortunately the books were wrong and I made incorrect choices from that bad data.
Projectiboga 23 days ago [-]
This is why you have to do a quick back of the envelope go over of the big numbers and make sure they are at least close. Loosing track of $300K is partly your fault. The scale means you have to be looking at it as part of a big picture summary uncontaminated by technology. With Nuclear Treaties it is called "Trust but Verify" and is applicable to business cash flows. You have to be skeptical of the automated numbers that employees touch as there can be either error or worse fraud.
willcipriano 23 days ago [-]
When I go over my household budget I'd notice if I wasn't paying my mortgage even if someone deleted it from my spreadsheet. It's important enough to me that it's front of mind when I'm thinking about money. I expect to see it on the list. I'd look for it if it wasn't there. Salaries are apparently not that big of a deal in the same way so asking for a higher one seems like a good idea.
rudolf1995 23 days ago [-]
Seems like a pretty sweeping generalization to take from a single anecdote about how one person was confused by a bad UI.
23 days ago [-]
Spivak 23 days ago [-]
Generally good advice in general, $10-20k is nothing to even a small business but is probably a lot to you. It's not often an asymmetry works out in the employees favor.
jbeard4 23 days ago [-]
Current (I guess now former) bench customer here. Concerned about this comment in their FAQ:
> On this website, by December 30th, you’ll be able to enter your Bench login credentials to download your current and prior year-end financials, as well as any documents you’ve uploaded such as receipts and bank statements.
This makes it sound like they are only making the year-end financials available - not the individual transactions/ledger entries. I’m concerned about this - aren’t the individual transactions required if one were to be audited? Would this create a lot of liability for their former customers?
mjr00 23 days ago [-]
Shocking, but not terribly surprising from a business perspective... From everyone I know who's worked there, the operation was just a thinly veiled wrapper around human accountants. The plan for profitability was that they'd eventually automate the human part away, but eventually never came.
My condolences to the employees who now have a stressful new year.
Spivak 23 days ago [-]
> The plan for profitability was that they'd eventually automate the human part away, but eventually never came.
Every. Damn. Time. I've fought and lost this battle at so many companies with directors and executives who were genuinely completely delusional about how much of a human process could be automated.
It's always the tasks that are easy and don't take up much time. If you end up solving one of the genuinely hard problems then you should just pivot to packaging and selling that as your business.
AlotOfReading 23 days ago [-]
It's how virtually all automation works. You figure out how to make a computer do 80% of the problem domain and give humans tools to intervene effectively when you're outside that subset.
Many of the most reliable systems you can think of work this way, from the mail, to taxes, to factories, to autopilot systems. The key to building them is to be intentional about what you're doing and especially avoid blaming the humans for the system's failures.
jegolden1 23 days ago [-]
Accounting startups that rely on automation are doomed to fail. Customers demand perfect accounting at automation-reflective prices. It’s just not possible.
Check out story of scalefactor.
Spivak 21 days ago [-]
Well yeah, if you're saying you can automate something, something as tractable as bookkeeping, then why would customers expect less quality? It should be perfect, and instant— that's the entire sales pitch of having a machine do it in the first place.
It might not be optimal, a human tax professional might be more creative and save you money, but it should always produce correct forms.
theanonymousone 22 days ago [-]
I don't know much about accounting, but isn't shutting down an accounting service three days before the end of the year a huge slap in the face if the clients of the service, maybe even fraudulent?
And if it is, is it really normal in this sector and "part of the deal" of working with startups?
Havoc 22 days ago [-]
Running discount promotions on annual plan up until recently is also rather sus.
Pages which are now mysteriously offline but still visible on way back machine
yolo2122 23 days ago [-]
Does shutting down mean bankruptcy? My businesses will have real damages from this - both the money that has been paid to bench all year for now no output of annual books/a financial summary as well as the cost of now having to pay to redo my 2024 books.
ABS 23 days ago [-]
on social media some employees are saying it's insolvent
jakecarpenter 23 days ago [-]
Seems like my experience may not have been typical. I used Bench from 19-23 for a startup and always felt like I was getting great service. I agree that they were a bit expensive, but the financials passed external reviews and always made my investors happy.
It is a shame to see them closing down this way, awful timing and awful treatment of their customers. As a founder, you need to fully understand your financials, but you should have a pro managing the day-to-day and even month-to-month.
kstrauser 22 days ago [-]
I used them from around '18-'22. There were a couple of minor glitches sometimes, but it was generally fine and they were always quick to respond to questions. My accountant liked working with them.
Nelkins 23 days ago [-]
The fact that they are recommending Kick makes me view that company with suspicion. This whole thing is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
conradwa 23 days ago [-]
We've onboarded a significant number of folks from Bench onto Kick before this happened, so this may have been why were were mentioned.
Working fast right now to try to provide resources and help Bench users migrate and will be sharing updates here: https://x.co/kickfinance
Nelkins 23 days ago [-]
Gotcha, thanks for that. I'm sure you're a solid company with happy users.
Totally agree. There is no contact page or reviews online for kick. I can’t afford to get into this mess again.
jsnyoung 23 days ago [-]
exactly.
ergocoder 22 days ago [-]
I lol'ed.
dceddia 23 days ago [-]
Wow, what a shock. I cancelled my account just days before the annual renewal earlier this month. I feel for all of the small businesses this is going to hurt. The service had been getting worse for an while and the last straw was when they sent an email saying the year-end financial report would be ready by April 10th, 5 days before the tax deadline.
I’m gonna have a go with plain text accounting for the bookkeeping for a bit. Looking at what Bench was doing, and my books in general not being too complicated I think it’ll be fine, maybe better actually because I’ll have a closer eye on things. Still using a CPA to file taxes though.
solidgiant 23 days ago [-]
I was just sold bench.co for my three businesses and the sales person Luc Lewarne made me sign a payment agreement with Capchase. The agreement states that I still owe Capchase the full amount for a year, even if Bench.co shuts down...
Does anyone have any contacts or experience with Capchase? I never even started my service, which was supposed to begin January 1st, 2025 and now I will have to pay out 12 months to Capchase?!?!
lucatbench 23 days ago [-]
Solidgiant, this is Luc Lewarne. I assure you that I am just as shocked as you are. I woke up today, along with my colleagues, to an email telling us that Bench was insolvent, and that all operations and employment would cease effective immediately. I know what it is like to be mislead in a buying process - it feels terrible. I want to let you know, person to person, that I had no bad intentions or knowledge of Bench’s future when I sold you our services. As for Capchase, I’m pretty sure they haven’t processed a payment from you yet, which means they haven’t sent us any funds. If you contact them, you should be able to get out of it.
solidgiant 23 days ago [-]
Thanks Luc for the response, I have emailed Capchase support and they asked me to talk to bench.co I wasn't trying to publicly name you to shame you, but was looking for help in case someone knew where to point me. Hindsight I can see, should have probably left that out. The public page on Bench.co didn't have any contact or way to talk to anyone so I used the only contact I had. I do wish you the best in your next endeavors.
ensignavenger 23 days ago [-]
I imagine it wasn't very fun to wake up to the news that you lost your job, and then to have your name personally called out :( I don't doubt you were just as mislead as your customers were. I hope you are able to take a few days to process the situation and decompress, and then you rebound quickly into your next position! I don't think anyone will hold it against you personally :)
ensignavenger 23 days ago [-]
Well in hindsight, that was a silly thing to do...
First step- make sure you have read and understand your contract. Is there a cancellation period? What state laws may apply (Some states a allow a cooling off period, but often this applies only to consumer contracts, not B2B).
Second, contact Capchase via email and see if they will will allow you out of the contract "peacefully". If they are smart, they will so "sure, no problem, of course" and cancel the contract. If not, name and shame them everywhere you have an audience.
Third, if that doesn't work, you can either proactively sue them to cancel the contract, or just don't pay them and let them decide whether or not to sue you. Doing the latter may result in a negative report on your business credit.
jegolden1 22 days ago [-]
And fourth maybe don't name and shame the poor salesperson.
neilv 23 days ago [-]
> I was just sold bench.co [...] made me sign a payment agreement with Capchase. The agreement states that I still owe Capchase the full amount for a year, even if Bench.co shuts down...
I might ask a lawyer if that looks like fraud. (And then wouldn't be surprised if the lawyer can quickly make it like the sale never happened, other than your time wasted, and the lawyer fees.)
Or maybe ask your state AG's office if that looks like fraud.
(Edit: I mean the appearance that Bench.co was entering contracts to provide service for a period, knowing that they probably wouldn't provide that service, and, further, attempting to obligate you to pay for service for the entire period anyway. Or something like that. I'm not a lawyer, so I'd ask one.)
benatkin 23 days ago [-]
Do account execs get a heads up about a shutdown? If not, maybe there wasn't a good reason to mention the account exec by name here.
thih9 23 days ago [-]
Agreed. Also, even if they did get a heads up, hn is not the place to resolve this kind of dispute. Emailing them, or a lawyer sounds more productive.
Shaming companies publicly is fine; shaming individual workers and posting personal data is bad taste to say the least.
neilv 23 days ago [-]
Which is part of why I didn't put the name in. The essence was that the company might have signed contracts that they knew they wouldn't fulfill.
Of course, salespeople should have professional reputations (e.g., for honesty, or for dishonesty). But don't let them be a scapegoat for the more likely real culprit or bigger fish.
23 days ago [-]
benatkin 23 days ago [-]
Good call.
ocdtrekkie 23 days ago [-]
I don't know the dollar figure here and I would hope Capchase is a company that will value their reputation over screwing you on that dollar figure, but I would definitely question why you signed an agreement to pay for a product even if that product is not deliverable. One of the primary value adds to the middleman in a transaction is generally that they take on some of the risk.
thih9 23 days ago [-]
Please do not name individual workers, they were likely unaware and no longer work there.
Shaming companies is fine, shaming individual workers is not; usually they are powerless, likely here too.
CoastalCoder 23 days ago [-]
> I was just sold bench.co for my three businesses and the sales person Luc Lewarne made me sign a payment agreement with Capchase.
I'm sorry for the troubles you had, but is it really fair to say the salesman made you sign an agreement?
josephcsible 23 days ago [-]
Wouldn't "you have to pay even if we don't deliver the product you're buying" be considered unconscionable?
caseyohara 23 days ago [-]
I’m guessing Capchase is a financier of sorts. Capchase pays Bench for the full term up front, then the customer pays Capchase in monthly increments.
So Capchase is delivering their product, the financing. Which is why there would be a clause that the customer still owes Capchase even if Bench closes; Capchase has already paid Bench and wants to be made whole.
runako 23 days ago [-]
This is how I read it as well. I hope OP got a significant discount on Bench service in exchange for this kind of agreement.
ShakataGaNai 23 days ago [-]
Yea. That doesn't sound right. I'd say Op should talk to a lawyer ASAP.
I mean, bad to agree to in the first place, but it doesn't seem like a contract where the other party is non-performant, should be enforceable.
chrismaeda 22 days ago [-]
It seems to me that this is the key takeaway for founders:
Your accounting stack is
1. accounting software
2. bookkeeping (ie operating the accounting software)
3. cpa / cfo (ie for tax and financial planning)
The benefit and problem with "nextgen" solutions like bench, kick, etc is that they provide a proprietary solution for the entire stack. This could be better/faster/cheaper but also comes with risk, as we are seeing in real time.
In contrast, the minimal risk approach is to source your accounting stack from different vendors:
1. accounting software (eg quickbooks, xero, wave)
2. bookkeeping (hire a person or use a service)
3. cpa / cfo (hire a person or use a service)
If you use "standard" accounting software, you can change the other layers of your accounting stack at will. The total cost of layers 1 and 2 might be $6k-$8k per year for a company with revenue, which looks more expensive than the nextgen solutions. But the reduced risk and increased flexibility may be worth it.
smathur3312 22 days ago [-]
Look into Paro.ai. They are a marketplace with good and reliable bookkeeper, accountants, CFOs. My AI startup got a CFO from them 3 years ago and the relationship is still going strong. They haven't hiked up my rates over 3 years. CPA firms increase rates every year, or dump you if you don't make enough money for them
Amfy 22 days ago [-]
Agreed, but how do you protect yourself against quickbooks/xero/wave going under? Especially with Wave being mostly(?) free
chrismaeda 21 days ago [-]
Good question. Quickbooks, Xero, and Wave are all owned by publicly traded companies.
(H&R Block owns Wave.)
carloshdx 23 days ago [-]
Im based here in the US, and unfortunately i signed up yesterday after learning about the bookkeeping special...for a small business $1005 is alot...Square (my bank) basically said they cant do anything about it since i autho the payment...Any suggestions?
kstrauser 23 days ago [-]
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be filing a fraud complaint. They had to have known this yesterday but still sold you a service. At least, that's the argument I'd be making, and I doubt the Bench team will have the bandwidth to dispute complaints right now.
deepsun 23 days ago [-]
Ask them for prorated refund. You paid for a service and didn't receive it.
solidgiant 23 days ago [-]
I signed up two weeks ago and they made me sign an ACH agreement with Capchase. Did you sign with capchase?
bayarearefugee 23 days ago [-]
If they won't help you navigate such an obvious fraud, report Square to the CFPB (while it still exists).
And keep situations like this in mind every time you hear some libertarian idiot railing against regulations.
arjawn 23 days ago [-]
Hey, Arjun here, CEO of doola (Business-in-a-Box for LLCs) (YC S20)
If you are a solopreneur or run an Ecom business and are looking for support with dedicated bookkeeping (including a human bookkeeper), check out https://www.doola.com/bookkeeping/
Happy to support anyone looking for help with bookkeeping + business tax filings for their business going into the new year (we support Non-US tax filings as well if you are a Non-US founder)
bagelss 23 days ago [-]
I’m interested in migrating over. We have one account in GBP currency, can you handle this too? It’s with wise.com. Do you over 2024 catch up too?
arjawn 23 days ago [-]
Hey we don't have multi-currency support (yet) but it's on the roadmap
Hey, if you're interested, happy to introduce you to my accountant. He handles our books that includes multiple currencies including GBP on wise.com.
deepsun 23 days ago [-]
I've heard they claimed to have SOC 2 security compliance, but refused to prove it (show the SOC2 report to customers) -- that's really fishy.
BehindBlueEyes 23 days ago [-]
They had that cert for the last ~3 years and were audited yearly and had a standard package to share with clients so doubt there's much to this rumor
deepsun 23 days ago [-]
Nope, just confirmed, they refused to share SOC2 Report with their paying customers.
CoastalCoder 23 days ago [-]
Can someone explain why potential customers would put up with this?
I'd think that the last thing a company wants to do is hire an bookkeeping company that seems shady.
jnwatson 23 days ago [-]
Perhaps I'm old school, but how hard is it to hire a bookkeeper part time, a CPA a few times a year, and use Quickbooks? Was there some special value that Bench provided?
yolo2122 23 days ago [-]
Been there done that several times over. One PT bookkeeper would only do books if they also got paid to process payroll which like the books was always behind. They did a good job on the books but I have small brick and mortar biz's. While I can wait a bit for books I can't to get my employees paid correctly, once someone's payroll isn't right/paychecks take longer/etc it gets heated.
Another would produce books that required a lot of work from my CPA which made the CPA a lot more expensive.
I've had it pretty easy - friends of mine have had PT/local bookkeepers do every form of damage you can think of - it's a messy world for SMB books. And those are nothing compared to the carnage I've observed small biz's with an employee PT or FT in house doing the books.
balls187 23 days ago [-]
You’re not old school.
This is just how the tech industry works.
I ofc know nothing about Bench, but am aware of tech companies that try to disrupt established businesses with the aid of free* unlimited* money.
blindriver 23 days ago [-]
You’re probably so small that you don’t need to worry about keeping good books. If you have a decent number of customers and employees and worry about payroll then you need proper accounting software.
arjvik 22 days ago [-]
I use GnuCash for my personal accounting, and have a flow down to import my monthly cashflow and categorize everything into my ledger. What does such accounting software provide on top of that?
runako 23 days ago [-]
$60m Series C 3.5 years ago. My hypothesis is they shut it down when they were unable to turn it into a rocketship.
jsnyoung 23 days ago [-]
You guys are lucky. I didn't even get an e-mail. I just found out I couldn't login and happened across the website. So what are the chances of getting any kind of refund for the services I paid for and will not receive?
Networkplumber 23 days ago [-]
I'm wondering the same thing. I paid for Bench through Freshbooks, who said they'll be offering refunds for services not rendered. If they didn't get back to me with this, I was going to dispute the charge with my credit card company. If you paid by CC, you could try that.
ezekg 23 days ago [-]
This is really frustrating. I'll admit their services have been going downhill dramatically (all my books Jan-Nov were still open as of last week and usually they would close subsequent month), but I still think shutting down right before the tax year ends is downright scummy.
What are the alternatives that handle bookkeeping and tax filing? Maybe I should just get a local CPA...
aphilbert 23 days ago [-]
Local CPA isn't a bad option though it could be pricey. (CPAs don't want to do book keeping either). I think one of the things that makes the bench.co shutdown challenging is that they used "proprietary" software so now you're going to have to migrate soon. Switching to accounting software that CPAs are more likely to be familiar with would be a step in the right direction and working with someone to aid that and help do catch up would be a good idea. I can help with both so that this isn't the catastrophe that it's shaping up to be
1123581321 23 days ago [-]
You can hire a bookkeeper to work with the CPA. I had a freelance freelancer who would keep books up to date, and then turn over the books to the CPA for tax prep and analysis. I estimate the cost was about half as much as if the CPA firm did everything, and everyone was doing what they wanted to do.
ibejoeb 23 days ago [-]
Definitely a local CPA. Building that relationship will pay off, even if it's just peace of mind.
kstrauser 23 days ago [-]
My local CPA had previously guided me to using Bench. "Accountant" and "bookkeeper" are separate disciplines. My accountant manages my tax filings and other complicated transactions. The bookkeeper makes sure all our ledgers balance out.
ibejoeb 23 days ago [-]
That's a fair assessment. I'd advise hiring a part-time bookkeeper if the transactions are sufficiently numerous or complicated to warrant it. The cpa can handle period closing concerns, trial balances, all that stuff. Many family-sized firms offer this as included, so there might not be much of a difference.
kstrauser 23 days ago [-]
For others reading along, one huge difference is that bookkeeping tends to be vastly cheaper per hour. It would get very expensive to pay a CPA to transcribe your credit card statement into Quickbooks (or previously Bench, or whatever else you're using for your ledgers).
Bookkeeping is sufficiently complex that I'd personally rather pay someone to do a good job of than muddle through on my own, but it's not rocket science. Perhaps most importantly, they understand accounting jargon. When my CPA asks me to send over the Fnord-Smootson report, and that's not the exact name of a report in my bookkeeping software, I have no freaking idea how to get that to him. A competent bookkeeper asks whether he needs that report frobnicated by date or by time-value and they work out the details.
A good CPA makes rocket science look easy. You typically pay them crazy amounts per hour, but for only a few hours a year. They take those bookkeeping journals and explain your situation to the IRS in a way favorable to your interests.
You want a good bookkeeper and you want a good CPA. If you can get both of those under the same roof, freaking awesome! Your life just got easier and more profitable.
ibejoeb 23 days ago [-]
Absolutely. I am actually not familiar with Bench, so I'm just talking in general, but I've never heard accounts of good experiences with highly parallel XaaS. Your f&a operation sort of necessarily needs to be close to your operation. It's tough to farm it out. There's a big continuity story in your books.
delfinom 23 days ago [-]
Depending on state and industry, accountants/CPAs are also auditors of the work performed by the bookkeeper.
foolfoolz 23 days ago [-]
“shutting down right before the tax year ends is downright scummy”
as if a dying business can magically decide to stay open longer and shut down at a more convenient time
aftbit 23 days ago [-]
They can though. Dying businesses take time to die. Even if nothing else, they could have decided to shut down _earlier_ so that customers would have more time to deal with the fallout. Or they could have decided to shut down _at the same time_ but just messaged about it earlier.
Ylpertnodi 23 days ago [-]
Just like the strategic announcement of bad news....on a Friday.
thayne 23 days ago [-]
It seems unlikely they didn't know they were going down until just a few days before having to shut down services.
And given that this happens during the holidays, ot wouldn't surprise me if some customers don't find out about this until after the window to extract your data has expired. Or people have to work on fixing this mess who were supposed to be on PTO.
jnwatson 23 days ago [-]
It is irony of all ironies that an accounting services company would be surprised about their own insolvency.
In reality, they had to have known for months. The director were probably just holding out for a Hail Mary funding injection.
This is bad bad business, especially for a financial services company.
datavirtue 22 days ago [-]
The investors aren't going to let you burn all the cash just because. They want out now with whatever is left so they can flip the coin to the next bet.
thayne 22 days ago [-]
Maybe if the investors could be held liable for the damage they cause for suddenly shutting something down like this, they would be more likely to give customers more warning before shutting something down.
BehindBlueEyes 23 days ago [-]
For sure staff was surprised, leadership not so much (I'd hope) but bear in mind the CEO was replaced just ~a month ago.
I bet they were hoping for a christmas miracle.
claudiogodoyb 23 days ago [-]
I have a friend who works at Taxfyle and they are a great alternative. They do both taxes and bookkeeping and work with software like Quickbooks and Xero where the pro does everything for you. Definitely worth checking out if you want to check their website: https://www.taxfyle.com/bookkeeping
nickcknight 23 days ago [-]
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lamp91 23 days ago [-]
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Kwpolska 22 days ago [-]
This thread is full of accounting service founders promoting their product, often with a discount for Bench refugees. Why are there so many of those accounting startups and how do they manage to survive in such a crowded market? Or are they also going to do a last-minute shutdown when the VC money runs out?
that_guy_iain 22 days ago [-]
The reason there are so many is that every company needs an accounting service. You don't need to dominate the market to have a profitable service.
Kwpolska 22 days ago [-]
Then how did Bench collapse? How many of those startups have enough customers to be profitable? How could I, as a business owner, decide based solely on their HN advertisements?
that_guy_iain 22 days ago [-]
> Then how did Bench collapse?
We don't know. There have been many companies that collapsed while competitors grew and new competitors started out. Companies collapse for various reasons. One good explanation is that secure debt got called in and that was the end of them.
> How many of those startups have enough customers to be profitable?
Who knows. How many of the VC ran startups are running at a loss to grow but if they just cut back would be profitable?
> How could I, as a business owner, decide based solely on their HN advertisements?
Who knows. Sounds like a foolish thing to do.
jegolden1 22 days ago [-]
The reason is that there is tons of money still flowing, because accounting is an industry that is easy to pitch to an investor in 2024.
1. It touches everyone
2. Everyone finds it annoying
3. Everyone thinks they pay too much
4. AI (still sexy) can fix the above
Unfortuntely, we're still decades from strong products.
I wouldn't touch any of these companies with a ten foot pole if I was a consumer or investor.
datavirtue 22 days ago [-]
Because literally no one knows how to keep books and manage a double entry system. We had a family business for 40+ years and most of the revenue was from fixing bookkeeping and accounting mistakes made by untrained individuals trying to use software (QuickBooks). "If the software lets me do it then it must be correct."
22 days ago [-]
burlesona 22 days ago [-]
They charged us for our next month of service the day before they shut down. That’s fraud.
taspeotis 22 days ago [-]
Think of it as two months of read access rather than one month of read/write access!
> You will have until Friday, March 7th at 5:00pm ET to download your Bench data from this website.
WesJam 23 days ago [-]
This is really sad to hear. We offer a related service in Canada, and therefore I am keenly interested in what didn’t work. If anyone from Bench is interested in chatting about what went wrong and what to avoid I would really appreciate your time / happy to grab a coffee if you are in Toronto.
For any Canadian corps caught up in the Bench shutdown. We bundle corporate governance, bookkeeping, tax and payroll for $250 CAD/month but only serve straight forward small Canadian corporations.
- Nick co-founder at Ribbon Business (https://getribbon.ai), nicholas.wesley-james@getribbon.ai
sirjaz 23 days ago [-]
This is the problem with SaaS. If it shuts down you loose access to your data and app. This is why we should have local native apps!
Baglanal 20 days ago [-]
To everyone navigating this transition, we understand the challenges and want to help make this process smoother. At Docyt, we are offering 30 days free to businesses impacted by this change, and we won’t enforce annual contracts because we believe flexibility and support are critical.
Docyt has extensive experience with migrations and can:
* Perform rapid migration of unlimited years of Bench data.
* Deliver full accrual basis bookkeeping.
* Support 20+ industry verticals and 30+ revenue systems.
* Handle multi-entity and intercompany accounting.
* Provide continuous reconciliation of key balance sheet accounts done daily.
* Offer integrated bill pay, receipt management, and expense reporting software.
We know this transition may feel overwhelming, but you don’t have to face it alone. Docyt is here to help businesses keep their books accurate and operations seamless. Reach out to me via LinkedIn if this has affected you - we are here to help!
rglover 22 days ago [-]
Glad I dropped Bench a few months back for my own solution. They started out great, but over the past 18 months, I was always having to reconnect via Plaid and then be told way after the fact to manually upload bank statements because my data wasn't syncing. Even worse, I started having to manually categorize nearly all transactions despite there being existing identical transactions they could auto-categorize from. Finally just built an app that imports data from my bank and lets me bulk categorize/fuzzy search transactions.
taxbirdie 23 days ago [-]
If you have been affected by this, don't go from one tech bro service to another. Find a company ran by a tax professional. There is no viable automated solution for bookkeeping and tax now. These are customer intensive fields that require inquiries and clarification, things that AI isn't adept at. This is my field and while I do use software to automate some work, it still hallucinates and can transpose items or be unable to read data. I do suggest doing a tax extension right away and letting your employees know. Depending on the state of your books, you may need to hire spmeoen to review them and process any 1099s and W2s you need to get out.
ahstilde 23 days ago [-]
always so annoying to find bookkeepers at a fair price.
In particular, charging on expenses or on transaction volume isn't aligned with value generated. Instead, bookkeepers should charge on "anomalous transactions identified and corrected"
https://www.ledgerup.ai/ (a YC co) has a bookkeeping agent integrated with quickbooks. I've migrated to them after trying Fondo (also a YC co) and a local SMB bookkeeper in the past.
There's so many YC backed bookkeepers - Pilot, Afternoon, Fondo, LedgerUp
lotsofpulp 22 days ago [-]
If bookkeepers and able to collect an “unfair” price, then why are there no publicly listed bookkeeping businesses putting up large profit margins?
Nelkins 23 days ago [-]
This is terrible. I paid them ~$4500 to do all my taxes and book keeping (just started my business this past June). What recourse do I have to get that money back?
Nelkins 23 days ago [-]
Also allegedly they were supposed to file an S Corp election. I've emailed them, but have no idea if I'll find out if it was actually sent.
mt1973 23 days ago [-]
same here. and my spouse signed up for the year to get taxes done quickly because we had an issue with 2023 -- and he hated them. I have used them for years. now I'm just at a loss. I don't know how to get money back. I'm sick.
BehindBlueEyes 20 days ago [-]
Looks like Bench is being acquired after all? Content of the linked page was updated thing morning.
I created a subreddit in case any current/former Bench users would like to continue talking to one another and compare notes: https://www.reddit.com/r/BenchUsers
Havoc 23 days ago [-]
Not even a tiny bit surprised given their pricing [0]. The only thing you're getting with those rates are juniors with questionable training and worse supervision. Likely outsourced to a cheap country on top of it.
As a reference point their MONTHLY rate would get you 1-2 hours of senior associate time at a B4 provider.
It's the equivalent of hopping onto fiverr and hiring a coder after sorting by low price, and then being surprised when you receive LLM code that doesn't compile. It's entirely your own fault if you thought that would work...
Just got an email from them out of nowhere and they are closing down more or immediately. Very surprising.
gkedzierski 23 days ago [-]
With how much they were charging and how little service they were providing, I can't comprehend how they've never been able to figure out the business model.
sahil__ 23 days ago [-]
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j45 23 days ago [-]
The cloud is someone else's computer, including SaaS and when they suddenly go away.
If there's an opportunity to open-source this code so people who can't simply migrate to one option after considering many, self-hosting might be an option at least in the interim.
BehindBlueEyes 23 days ago [-]
Their software is designed to enable hundreds of bookkeepers to do the accounting with some interesting automations, self hosting makes little sense. As an individual, if you want to do things yourself, you're better off using gnucash.
j45 21 days ago [-]
Plenty of accounting software that can do multi-tenancy and multi-entity exists that can be self-hosted.
Accounting software is not novel, multi-tenancy and multi-entity is not a novel feature.
There are plenty of accounting platforms that do a lot of this, if not most, and are self hosted or you can run in your own cloud.
Odoo is an easy one that comes to mind, plenty of others.
GNUCash isn't really a business accounting platform.
Accounting firm run by an entrepreneur that specializes in small to medium size businesses.
Offering free migration/onboarding for the first 100 clients who join them from Bench.
bagelss 23 days ago [-]
Does anyone have experience with Kick.co? It seems more self-managed with AI. I don’t want to migrate to another company that’s just going to close again despite being well funded.
7 years with bench and just renewed the annual plan last month. Seems like it’s unlikely we’ll see any refund for the 11 months remaining. Very frustrating to have to mirage somewhere else and pay for 2024 catch up.
aimeess24 23 days ago [-]
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bagelss 23 days ago [-]
I agree, not a great first impression. I have several questions before we jump to another provider especially an untested one.
ihaveanaupair 23 days ago [-]
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ottoaj 23 days ago [-]
my wife's company was literally talking to bench support few days ago for her last year LLC & personal taxes that they have been delaying for months. this new is crazy.
Anyone looking help with only LLC & personal takes then just email me here and we'll help you out: vip@joinotto.com
Kwpolska 22 days ago [-]
So you run a bookkeeping company, yet your wife is using a competitor?
entityinc 23 days ago [-]
Hi, I am the founder of entity.inc and several accounting firms. We are offering free migration from bench, tax planning and compliance as well as legal services. If anyone has any issues or needs, whether you are based in the US or abroad, please reach out.
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nervous_jessica 23 days ago [-]
No mention of refunds for unused months
ABS 23 days ago [-]
on social media employees are saying it's insolvent so no refunds :-(
>Have CREATE EXTENSION IF NOT EXISTS postgis; installed.
Why is postgis a requirement for an accounting package?
journal 23 days ago [-]
I wanted some features for shipping and receiving and ability to find closest assets. I'll be importing zip codes which have lat lng needs to be stored and queryable.
numbsafari 23 days ago [-]
Sales tax calculations maybe?
23 days ago [-]
laleck 23 days ago [-]
For pure bookkeeping at a small scale, I really like plain text accounting with beancount and fava
Bookkeeping is easy but labor intensive. Dealing with US tax law... That's when you spend on a local CPA.
nickcknight 23 days ago [-]
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cyrusradfar 23 days ago [-]
Collective formally responded on LinkedIn with:
We're sorry to hear about Bench shutting down, particularly coming into tax season.
As a company that specializes in solopreneur finance (formation, accounting, tax and payroll) we know that this time of year is stressful as is. If Collective can support or help you and your business in any way, please reach out at http://collective.com, join one of our Q+A sessions, or reach out to me at hooman@collective.com.
If we're a good fit for your business, use the code HERETOHELP to get a discount off of your membership.
We have years of experience working with former Bench customers and our team is working through the weekend to help any small businesses who need urgent help. We're here to support you.
If you're an employee that was impacted, we also have lots of job openings at www.collective.com/careers.
Interesting that they didn’t even consider doing an “AI pivot”
ezekg 22 days ago [-]
They had been slapping on a bunch of "AI" tools this year, all of which required me to manually converse with the AI to categorize transactions. I was wondering what I was even paying Bench for with how much manual work I had to do each month i.r.t. to my books.
23 days ago [-]
mdlm 23 days ago [-]
Got the same email. Totally shocking.
pkkkzip 23 days ago [-]
hmmm another "unicorn" from vancouver that bites the dust, i remember one with an owl as mascot logo can't recall what they did or their names but many ppl from vancouver mentioned it while ago.
I wonder why that place can't compete with American cities, i think even Toronto /Montreal is more successful than Vancouver.
for one the low salary must be demoralizing on top of being one of the most expensive cities in the world.
have there been notable canadian startup unicorn that turned IPO or major acquisition (100x ROI and up?) other than Shopify?
seems like nobody can really compete with America when it comes to creating IPOs and billionaires.
justinhj 23 days ago [-]
US companies pay more and obviosuly it’s a bigger market. It means the pool of good engineers and leaders is constantly leaking across the border. I’ve made Vancouver work for me for 20 years but there are significant headwinds and for young people with no ties there is very little incentive to stay.
There is a lot more happening on the East coast though.
rchaud 22 days ago [-]
> seems like nobody can really compete with America when it comes to creating IPOs and billionaires.
This is another way of saying American tech VCs throw a lot of money around, often into poor investments, in the hope of cornering the market on $nextBigThing. In a world where any Tom, Dick and Harry can run up massive losses and still IPO through an SPAC, how is that an indicator of anything good?
lotsofpulp 22 days ago [-]
>In a world where any Tom, Dick and Harry can run up massive losses and still IPO through an SPAC, how is that an indicator of anything good?
Anyone can IPO, but few earn money doing it. In the last 10 years, how many owners made any significant money IPO-ing through an SPAC? The market has mostly rewarded good businesses with cash flow and profits and growth, and others have lagged behind a relatively risk-less SP500 investment.
This very thread is an example of yet another business shutting down because the business couldn’t achieve the desired profit margins. If the owners could have IPO’d and made money, they would have.
rchaud 22 days ago [-]
> Anyone can IPO, but few earn money doing it. In the last 10 years, how many owners made any significant money IPO-ing through an SPAC?
If owners are holding stock (instead of say, options), then the only reason to IPO would be if they can sell the stock on the secondary market at a profit. They wouldn't need to IPO to raise capital, the VCs can offer that. So what would be event where such a SPAC IPO wouldn't make money for the founder?
marcobambini 23 days ago [-]
Does anyone know the reason?
lindsi 23 days ago [-]
This is so fucked up**. I have an annual account and they have not done my books since July and now this... An no refunds?!
amac 22 days ago [-]
Poor.
theanonymousone 22 days ago [-]
Is the list of the board members or VCs involved in this confidential?
lgreer 23 days ago [-]
I have been a Bench customer for eight years. I have simple books, and the service was perfect at the time. Over the last three years, the turnover was bananas - and for the last three years, the year-end financials kept taking longer and longer to complete. This year, it was to the point I was going to leave. They offered a discount and a chance to adjust. They did much better, until this month when the announcement came that you had to sign a year contract and choose within TWO WEEKS to avoid another price hike and FORCED year. That, or leave. I was shocked when I asked if I could at least have my year-end done, as this was happening right at the end of the year. Straight up, the answer was no. You have to have a subscription for the year to get that. I was going to stay the coming year solely because of the timing to move and set up elsewhere, but now, I see this was simply in the cards. They wanted to see if things could be salvaged by how many annuals they got - clearly, there weren't enough. What is MORE of a slap in the face is the AUDACITY to - IN YOUR TERMINATION EMAIL - HAVE AN AFFILIATE RECOMMENDATION TO ANOTHER SERVICE - ARE YOU INSANE???? Do they think we are COMPLETE MORONS??? I smell a lawsuit brewing, not from me but from larger companies. Some things are COMPLETELY rotten here.
801accounting 23 days ago [-]
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jseibert 23 days ago [-]
Truly crazy news and timing for this to happen over the holidays.
I'm the founder/CEO of Digits - if you're a tech startup on Bench, we'd love to work together. Reach out to vip@digits.com and we'll extend our friends/family discount and make this as painless for you as possible.
Nelkins 23 days ago [-]
Do you do personal tax returns in addition to business taxes as part of a package?
beibeiq 23 days ago [-]
Are you a single member LLC? Digits is focused on C Corps right now and for C Corps we can offer personal tax returns. Fill out this form: https://tinyurl.com/digits-bench here. Our team is fully focused on helping Bench customers through the rest of the holidays!
Nelkins 23 days ago [-]
Single member LLC, so I don't think Digits is the right fit for me at the moment. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
claudiogodoyb 23 days ago [-]
I have a friend who works at Taxfyle and they cater to single-member LLCs and newly formed businesses. They seem like a great fit for you if you need taxes and bookkeeping done. Check out their website: https://www.taxfyle.com/bookkeeping
wilkystyle 23 days ago [-]
Off topic, but what is going on with the comments in this discussion? Seems like a ton of new accounts, and strange behavior like commenting gibberish or exact same comment text within minutes of each other, for example:
strattonoak 39 minutes ago | prev | next [–]
The no access to data smells like a ransomware event. Why is data not available to export out and everything is taken down and not accessible? Seems like it's way more work to take down access that to leave it up?
theoak 40 minutes ago | prev | next [–]
The no access to data smells like a ransomware event. Why is data not available to export out and everything is taken down and not accessible? Seems like it's way more work to take down access that to leave it up?
jsnell 23 days ago [-]
My guess is that this page is ranking very high for the kind of search anyone would use for finding out more about the closure.
So disgruntled customers are finding the page and complain, competitors are finding the page to use for lead generation.
dang 23 days ago [-]
Yes, this seems to be what happened.
(But the specific accounts mentioned by the GP were a bit of a special case.)
LordDragonfang 23 days ago [-]
So: that specific comment was posted three times, by accounts named strattonoakmont, strattonoak, and theoak. I googled the first and got this wikipedia page:
> Stratton Oakmont, Inc. was a Long Island, New York, over-the-counter brokerage house founded in 1989 by Jordan Belfort and Danny Porush. It defrauded many shareholders, leading to the arrest and incarceration of several executives and the closing of the firm in 1996.
It's the company from the Wolf of Wall street.
benchscrewedus 23 days ago [-]
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wdaher 23 days ago [-]
If you’re a tech startup and previously used Bench, I’d strongly encourage you to check out Pilot.com - we work with literally thousands of startups. (Disclaimer: I’m one of the founders.)
cj 23 days ago [-]
Genuine question: why did you raise $100 million Series C for a bookkeeping company? I'm a Pilot customer, and my heart dropped when I saw your funding announcement on the homepage a while back.
The disconnect you have with me (your customer) is that I don’t want or need a “tech enabled service”.
I just want the service.
Sometimes being a Pilot customer feels like I’m being experimented on. Instead of humans reliably doing our books, now I need to hire a fractional CFO (which you conveniently also provide) to double check your work.
We find errors in our Pilot books at a staggering rate. Things that would never be missed if we just had a human bookkeeper.
The value prop for a “tech enabled service” from a customers perspective is non-existent. It’s not cheaper for the customer (I pay you over $25k/yr for doing very little), the quality isn’t any better, and as we see with Bench (who also raised $100 million) there’s incredible risk in relying on it as a business critical service.
Anyone reading this, just please go hire a human bookkeeper. Don’t believe the marketing spin pitched by these tech enabled services companies.
JordanMerritt 20 days ago [-]
Hey cj, just created an account here to reply to your thoughts, as they strike home. I own Merrittbookkeeping.com. It's a bookkeeping service run by humans, offering very affordable monthly rates. I'm surprised how many new companies are launching "AI powered bookkeeping", but for more money than we are! Why would the end user care if it's AI, unless it's way cheaper? Same thing you are expressing here. Not sure why companies promote fancy tech unless it is a benefit to the end user, not the company themselves.
bagelss 23 days ago [-]
I’m interested in migrating over to Pilot. How is the migration process from bench? It seems we can do a data export in a few days. Can pilot do 2024 catch up?
wdaher 23 days ago [-]
We have a number of folks who have switched from Bench, and as you can imagine there's enough volume here that it's worth building some bespoke stuff for this.
And yes, we can do 2024 catch-up work.
(waseem@pilot.com if folks have any specific questions)
adam_gyroscope 23 days ago [-]
Happy pilot customer at both my startups (gyroscope & bit.io), and will be using them again for my third.
Nelkins 23 days ago [-]
Do you service single member LLCs/S Corps?
wdaher 22 days ago [-]
We do, yes.
porter 23 days ago [-]
Pilot looks very expensive!
aimazon 23 days ago [-]
I guess we now know that the price of a bookkeeping and tax preparation service that won’t shut down without warning is the 2x pilot are charging of what bench were charging.
porter 23 days ago [-]
You don't know they won't shut down. And how does this compare to a local accounting firm?
CamperBob2 23 days ago [-]
And how does this compare to a local accounting firm?
Hint: ask the salesman what happens in the event of an IRS audit. A good local CPA will go to the wall for you. Will the service you're considering do the same?
wdaher 23 days ago [-]
Price should be comparable to a high-quality local provider, but if that's not what you're seeing, I'd love to know that.
santoshalper 23 days ago [-]
Your bookkeeping service shutting down with no notice over the holidays is not cheap either, my friend. Some things are worth paying for.
dustingetz 23 days ago [-]
let’s hear your metrics on the issues of timeliness, accuracy, cost and bookkeeper churn that Bench faced?
Joup 23 days ago [-]
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blakebilliet 23 days ago [-]
Hey everybody -- I'm the founder and CEO of Afino. We offer all of the same services as Bench and ready to help any founder affected by this sudden shutdown.
Awesome. Since you're here, could you share pricing? I know it may vary, but since you are offering to bring on Bench customers perhaps you could share pricing for similar service as Bench's offerings?
blakebilliet 23 days ago [-]
You're right that it varies a lot but we're priced competitively with all of our peers. I haven't seen a quote that we can't beat. We're playing a long game here and aren't going to lose a good customer on price.
Bookkeeping starts at $500/mo, Fed + State Taxes at $2,400. We do a long list of FP&A and fractional CFO services as needed. We get our prospects a detailed quote from just a 30-min call.
ayesha314 20 days ago [-]
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EybQrT3c 23 days ago [-]
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fincent 22 days ago [-]
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euph0ria 23 days ago [-]
We just moved to CleerTax. Not sure if they are good yet but pretty responsive.
MubarakShahCPA 23 days ago [-]
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ezekg 23 days ago [-]
Your website doesn't mention tax filing. Is this a new offering or am I missing it somewhere?
mmetr 23 days ago [-]
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bolshchikov 23 days ago [-]
CEO of Finaloop (real-time financial solution) just offered a migration package and 75% off.
If you're a ecommerce brand, we specialize in ecomm bookkeeping and can get you migrated and caught up for 2024 immediately.
DayZero - ondayzero.com - or send me an email michelle@ondayzero.com. Always happy to be a resource
hadil001 23 days ago [-]
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ezekg 23 days ago [-]
They don't do taxes so not appealing to me. That was the main pain point Bench solved for me.
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mgkimsal 23 days ago [-]
FYI: "You will have until Friday, March 7th at 5:00pm ET to download your Bench data from this website."
laleck 23 days ago [-]
Additionally, they took down all of their accounting articles without notice. They had valuable summaries on various tax topics. Thankfully, Wayback Machine has archives of my bookmarks.
All the more reason to self-host your own archived versions of bookmarks...
aftbit 23 days ago [-]
Not sure why flagged. Link rot is one of the scourges of the internet.
avs733 23 days ago [-]
is there an easy solution for this? I recently found myself looking through old bookmarks from a long previous project and only about 1/3 worked and it made me sad.
Recently, I've started messing around with vimwiki and saving pages as PDF or as safari web archive.
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johnkadams 23 days ago [-]
does any one know who is in charge at Bench accounting? Does anyone know where the scum bag is. I want to find this ass hole. I want to swear criminal warrants for them. Anyone who has info on this situation please contact John adams 678-508-1590 or email john@thebrasslantern.com
BenCPA 23 days ago [-]
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MayowaO 23 days ago [-]
Come to factsfinancegroup.com
Real people.
Won't bore you with technical talk, your books will simply be done. You will be tax ready and tax efficient.
Last, but not least, you will have everything you need to grow at your fingertips.
We simply want 100 clients.
We'll focus on 100 of you and continue to the moon together.
fractionalboy 23 days ago [-]
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cmosser 23 days ago [-]
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ezekg 23 days ago [-]
How can Claude file your taxes for you? And without hallucinations? Seems dangerous tbh
digitcatphd 22 days ago [-]
Not for filing. The hard part is understanding how to find exemptions, deductions, ect. It has already outperformed both my CPA and tax attorney and at this point I am using it to correct them before taking their advice.
rolandjeon 23 days ago [-]
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strattonoakmont 23 days ago [-]
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strattonoak 23 days ago [-]
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theoak 23 days ago [-]
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pdoconnell 23 days ago [-]
If they're insolvent, depending on who they're using for their infrastructure their systems and services may have literally been turned off on them.
johnkadams 23 days ago [-]
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avs733 23 days ago [-]
while I can imagine the frustration, I'm not sure this is a post you want attached to your name if you have to get into a legal battle with them.
evabiz7 23 days ago [-]
EVA Business Solutions can help any impacted Bench customers. Contact them at info@evabusiness-solutions.com or call 615-461-7157.
romanzubenko 23 days ago [-]
If you are an ecom brand or tech startup - I'm CEO of Afternoon.co (YC F25) providing same services as Bench including year end tax filing, ready to onboard you asap, just email me at roman@afternoon.co
davidkopf 23 days ago [-]
I'm sorry for all those affected by the Bench Accounting shutdown. If any of you are solopreneurs, feel free to reach out to my friend Nate at Cookie Finance. They are a highly trusted accounting platform (US based) that provides full-service accounting/tax. Nate also shared with me that they’ve already worked with a lot of former Bench clients.
We were bench customers until a few months ago, paying thousands of dollars per year for what could only be described as hundreds of dollars worth of service. The service was not very good so moving away was an easy choice but on a per-customer basis they must be making money hand over fist.
I expect we'll find out more eventually, hopefully employees will leak some insight. For now, this is inexplicable.
Where did you move to?
Because they never figured out how to automate enough of the process to scale revenue up without scaling expenses.
All the investments in these VC funded companies is a bet that the companies will develop automation that will allow them to not hire staff, period (relative to the growth in customers).
Cronitor uses pilot. It was a little crazy at first but the last year+ feels like they have stabilized operations.
Doubley so if the business isnt really profitable.
As GP said, usually if the covenant isn’t being met but the company is profitable or has a good excuse the lender will not call the debt. They’ll work with you. I’ve seen tons of flexibility here from lenders. Usually the lender will start having more questions about the strategy and current forecasts if the metrics are underperforming and you’ll (CEO/CFO) will have to start being a bit more transparent than required or maybe just more frequent check in meetings to discuss status. In most cases, if you actually have a good story and have a healthy partnership the lender doesn’t want to call the loan and wants to see how they can help (within tolerance) get you back on track.
The moment the lender calls the loan typically, in startup land, there’s no cash reserves to pay off the debt and so the company is instantly insolvent and operations cease. This is why the lender is flexible, calling is typically a nuke for the business. But also, it can be a bit of a stop/loss. Meaning the cash in the bank can at least be recouped.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/dscr.asp
The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
A few staff guessed it might close 3 weeks ago at best though everything was very uncertain, but most of the accountants probably didn't see this coming either.
source: I know a few former employees.
I would expect this was the kind of thing an accountant should see coming though.
Last company I was at was an ESOP. Talk about a scam. They are under no obligation to let employees monitor the health of their "retirement plan." It's a tax shelter for business owners who want to retire. Coming from a company that had open books I had assumed that ESOP members would have some rights, nope.
Having left that shit show for a startup I'm getting regular financial health and funding updates constantly.
Don't be a mushroom.
Are you saying that as a software developer, or you work with other things?
https://x.com/ianwcrosby/status/1872724231999381790
https://nitter.poast.org/ianwcrosby/status/18727242319993817...
More about nitter: https://github.com/zedeus/nitter
"Guest accounts" were accounts you could generate to access Twitter without actually signing up, but then Elon Musk killed them so then Nitter was basically declared dead because most people don't want to spend time making tons of actual accounts to run a Nitter instance and then Elon Musk also made the ratelimits stricter so you needed even more accounts.
Some of the bigger Nitter instances used thousands of guest accounts.
https://xcancel.com/ianwcrosby/status/1872724231999381790
However, I've found that 'the only winning move has been not to play'. Anytime I venture back it's like my psyche entering the matrix and always coming off worse.
I repeat, it really is a ... anyway.
This post, that you’ve typed up and posted online, for all to see, is about your opinion of Elon Musk
Your post above is a failed attempt at a petty gotcha.
Aside from the poster I was talking to not appearing to agree with you (they immediately made another Elon post), no, it isn’t. If upon seeing the phrase “I don’t like hamburger” I am swept up with an urge to dunk and say “re evaluate your life choices for talking about hamburger” it is very obvious that I’ve taken my time to tell you that I have strong feelings about hamburger and take issue with the position taken, not the subject matter.
Seeing as they then wrote “elon hate is real” moments after my response, it is doubly clear that the issue isn’t mention of the guy but rather any negative mention of the guy.
If I go out of my way to police any negative mention of something, that is a direct expression of how I value that thing.
(The post has since been edited to “obsession with elon is real”, which, yes, it is. Some folks absolutely cannot scroll past that name without it sparking an urge to dunk)
So, speaking as a former customer, the tragedy and timeline you mention pass the sniff test for me. So glad your next venture has been going well for you!
I found his posts interesting. I was a Bench customer for several years until we sold our business, and I appreciate the background information about the bullet we dodged.
You're seriously claiming a bad leader can't destroy a company/organization/project/country?
> I wanted to continue with what was working and with what our partners had signed on to distribute.
How does he know it was working? He says it so matter of factly.
And that’s what this big-mad comes down to.
However, he mentioned they just raised $60 million. If his approach wasn’t working, why would anyone invest that amount? And if the plan was to fire him, given that his vote was required, wouldn’t it have been more transparent to say upfront: “If you reject the acquisition and opt for this $60 million investment instead, we’re going to fire you”?
If the new captain is good. But a bad captian can sink any ship, unless the crew is willing and able to mutinee to prevent it.
In a direct reply to the thread. Well, it is confirming the original thread.
However I can, albeit anecdotally from my perspective, say that I felt there was a marked difference in Bench's quality/service/responsiveness/performance/etc about 3yrs ago. This aligns with the timeline given by the former CEO in his post for his departure.
Paying for a service and not getting what you expect, especially when it comes to your taxes is no joke.
Instead of having to start from scratch, our team at Kick is moved quickly to build these resources to help prior Bench customers:
1. Free Bench migration
2. Free 2024 Bookkeeping review calls
3. Free Daily Live Q&As (coming soon)
We’re moving fast and sharing additional resources and updates in real time here:
- https://kick.co/bench
- https://x.com/kickfinance
Other resources on the way include a Tax Extension Guide and Accountant Directory to make sure folks get a soft landing is this difficult time.
If you're running into issues, my email me at conrad@kick.co and I’ll do the best I can to route you to the right place.
Also are any of the C-Level execs from Bench involved in Kick in any way?
We're working fast right now to try to provide resources and help Bench users migrate and will be sharing updates here: https://x.co/kickfinance
"For continued support with your bookkeeping, we recommend exploring Kick, a modern accounting software, which has created an exclusive offer to handle your ongoing needs: kick.co/bench."
Having an "exclusive offer" listed in the initial closure communication/announcement + you having a landing page ready to go sounds like there was more to Bench just happening to mention Kick because your company has "onboarded a significant number of customers from Bench onto Kick before this happened"...
It's entirely possible this landing page is Kick's competitive offer, and Bench linked to it because it offers all the people they just screwed over by collapsing a discount.
If they asked Kick to be listed as an alternative in the closure email or asked them to do a discount nbd I have no issue there. I just want the full story given Bench events.
On the shutdown page I listed some alternatives people could try. I found them via Google, but i didn't first try them or talk to them.
They were really just a helpful hint for folk wanting to change to get started. (The thing I was killing was a product not a service so it wasn't going to actually stop working, it was just no longer being updated.)
So, in this case, a simple statement of fact (as above) would be good enough for me. But feel free to do your due diligence.
The service was fine, interesting that their relationship ended just over a year ago.
Let me know if anyone requires our services for Bookkeeping/Accounting.
I've followed all the steps required to unlock the "sorry to hear about the Bench situation" onboarding.
Now after jumping through all the hoops, I'm told that the "free onboarding" and call only happens after the payment is processed later in January.
Why wait?
It's difficult to vet your service without this assistance. Money aside, time is of the essence here.
Really hoping to be proven wrong here, but this feels like an opportunistic sales initiative that claims to be more, but is really just a "20% off for your first year" coupon code.
Also, it seems a bit odd to me that the "balance sheet" ability is two non-free pricing levels deep into your service. Isn't that a baseline expectation?
They didn't need a heads up to build this. It takes between half an hour and half a day.
No, you're not. The minimum for commitment is a longer notice.
All I can take away from it is a few lessons, because this is a pretty awful outcome for almost every party.
This is fascinating. That smells like actual fraud on their part.
Sure ultimately everything falls upon me the founder. But something so common as GUSTO payroll should never be miscategorized and hidden from view.
What sort of accounting books were being prepared where such a function is even needed?
The difference is that you can recognize the revenue on receipt of the cash, but at the same time, you also recognize the liability to deliver the service (based on COGS etc for the liability).
The liability reduces as you expense (and actually pay on a cash basis) the cost of supplying the service.
At least that's my non-accountant idea of how it works.
I may be completely wrong.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> On this website, by December 30th, you’ll be able to enter your Bench login credentials to download your current and prior year-end financials, as well as any documents you’ve uploaded such as receipts and bank statements.
This makes it sound like they are only making the year-end financials available - not the individual transactions/ledger entries. I’m concerned about this - aren’t the individual transactions required if one were to be audited? Would this create a lot of liability for their former customers?
My condolences to the employees who now have a stressful new year.
Every. Damn. Time. I've fought and lost this battle at so many companies with directors and executives who were genuinely completely delusional about how much of a human process could be automated.
It's always the tasks that are easy and don't take up much time. If you end up solving one of the genuinely hard problems then you should just pivot to packaging and selling that as your business.
Many of the most reliable systems you can think of work this way, from the mail, to taxes, to factories, to autopilot systems. The key to building them is to be intentional about what you're doing and especially avoid blaming the humans for the system's failures.
Check out story of scalefactor.
It might not be optimal, a human tax professional might be more creative and save you money, but it should always produce correct forms.
And if it is, is it really normal in this sector and "part of the deal" of working with startups?
Pages which are now mysteriously offline but still visible on way back machine
It is a shame to see them closing down this way, awful timing and awful treatment of their customers. As a founder, you need to fully understand your financials, but you should have a pro managing the day-to-day and even month-to-month.
Working fast right now to try to provide resources and help Bench users migrate and will be sharing updates here: https://x.co/kickfinance
BTW, that link to your X profile returns a 404. It should be https://x.com/kickfinance .
I’m gonna have a go with plain text accounting for the bookkeeping for a bit. Looking at what Bench was doing, and my books in general not being too complicated I think it’ll be fine, maybe better actually because I’ll have a closer eye on things. Still using a CPA to file taxes though.
Does anyone have any contacts or experience with Capchase? I never even started my service, which was supposed to begin January 1st, 2025 and now I will have to pay out 12 months to Capchase?!?!
First step- make sure you have read and understand your contract. Is there a cancellation period? What state laws may apply (Some states a allow a cooling off period, but often this applies only to consumer contracts, not B2B).
Second, contact Capchase via email and see if they will will allow you out of the contract "peacefully". If they are smart, they will so "sure, no problem, of course" and cancel the contract. If not, name and shame them everywhere you have an audience.
Third, if that doesn't work, you can either proactively sue them to cancel the contract, or just don't pay them and let them decide whether or not to sue you. Doing the latter may result in a negative report on your business credit.
I might ask a lawyer if that looks like fraud. (And then wouldn't be surprised if the lawyer can quickly make it like the sale never happened, other than your time wasted, and the lawyer fees.)
Or maybe ask your state AG's office if that looks like fraud.
(Edit: I mean the appearance that Bench.co was entering contracts to provide service for a period, knowing that they probably wouldn't provide that service, and, further, attempting to obligate you to pay for service for the entire period anyway. Or something like that. I'm not a lawyer, so I'd ask one.)
Shaming companies publicly is fine; shaming individual workers and posting personal data is bad taste to say the least.
Of course, salespeople should have professional reputations (e.g., for honesty, or for dishonesty). But don't let them be a scapegoat for the more likely real culprit or bigger fish.
Shaming companies is fine, shaming individual workers is not; usually they are powerless, likely here too.
I'm sorry for the troubles you had, but is it really fair to say the salesman made you sign an agreement?
So Capchase is delivering their product, the financing. Which is why there would be a clause that the customer still owes Capchase even if Bench closes; Capchase has already paid Bench and wants to be made whole.
I mean, bad to agree to in the first place, but it doesn't seem like a contract where the other party is non-performant, should be enforceable.
Your accounting stack is
The benefit and problem with "nextgen" solutions like bench, kick, etc is that they provide a proprietary solution for the entire stack. This could be better/faster/cheaper but also comes with risk, as we are seeing in real time.In contrast, the minimal risk approach is to source your accounting stack from different vendors:
If you use "standard" accounting software, you can change the other layers of your accounting stack at will. The total cost of layers 1 and 2 might be $6k-$8k per year for a company with revenue, which looks more expensive than the nextgen solutions. But the reduced risk and increased flexibility may be worth it.(H&R Block owns Wave.)
And keep situations like this in mind every time you hear some libertarian idiot railing against regulations.
If you are a solopreneur or run an Ecom business and are looking for support with dedicated bookkeeping (including a human bookkeeper), check out https://www.doola.com/bookkeeping/
Happy to support anyone looking for help with bookkeeping + business tax filings for their business going into the new year (we support Non-US tax filings as well if you are a Non-US founder)
And we can help with 2024 catchup
You can book a free demo here, excited to help if we can: https://www.doola.com/bookkeeping/book-a-demo/
I'd think that the last thing a company wants to do is hire an bookkeeping company that seems shady.
Another would produce books that required a lot of work from my CPA which made the CPA a lot more expensive.
I've had it pretty easy - friends of mine have had PT/local bookkeepers do every form of damage you can think of - it's a messy world for SMB books. And those are nothing compared to the carnage I've observed small biz's with an employee PT or FT in house doing the books.
This is just how the tech industry works.
I ofc know nothing about Bench, but am aware of tech companies that try to disrupt established businesses with the aid of free* unlimited* money.
What are the alternatives that handle bookkeeping and tax filing? Maybe I should just get a local CPA...
Bookkeeping is sufficiently complex that I'd personally rather pay someone to do a good job of than muddle through on my own, but it's not rocket science. Perhaps most importantly, they understand accounting jargon. When my CPA asks me to send over the Fnord-Smootson report, and that's not the exact name of a report in my bookkeeping software, I have no freaking idea how to get that to him. A competent bookkeeper asks whether he needs that report frobnicated by date or by time-value and they work out the details.
A good CPA makes rocket science look easy. You typically pay them crazy amounts per hour, but for only a few hours a year. They take those bookkeeping journals and explain your situation to the IRS in a way favorable to your interests.
You want a good bookkeeper and you want a good CPA. If you can get both of those under the same roof, freaking awesome! Your life just got easier and more profitable.
as if a dying business can magically decide to stay open longer and shut down at a more convenient time
And given that this happens during the holidays, ot wouldn't surprise me if some customers don't find out about this until after the window to extract your data has expired. Or people have to work on fixing this mess who were supposed to be on PTO.
In reality, they had to have known for months. The director were probably just holding out for a Hail Mary funding injection.
This is bad bad business, especially for a financial services company.
I bet they were hoping for a christmas miracle.
We don't know. There have been many companies that collapsed while competitors grew and new competitors started out. Companies collapse for various reasons. One good explanation is that secure debt got called in and that was the end of them.
> How many of those startups have enough customers to be profitable?
Who knows. How many of the VC ran startups are running at a loss to grow but if they just cut back would be profitable?
> How could I, as a business owner, decide based solely on their HN advertisements?
Who knows. Sounds like a foolish thing to do.
1. It touches everyone 2. Everyone finds it annoying 3. Everyone thinks they pay too much 4. AI (still sexy) can fix the above
Unfortuntely, we're still decades from strong products.
I wouldn't touch any of these companies with a ten foot pole if I was a consumer or investor.
> You will have until Friday, March 7th at 5:00pm ET to download your Bench data from this website.
For any Canadian corps caught up in the Bench shutdown. We bundle corporate governance, bookkeeping, tax and payroll for $250 CAD/month but only serve straight forward small Canadian corporations.
- Nick co-founder at Ribbon Business (https://getribbon.ai), nicholas.wesley-james@getribbon.ai
Docyt has extensive experience with migrations and can: * Perform rapid migration of unlimited years of Bench data. * Deliver full accrual basis bookkeeping. * Support 20+ industry verticals and 30+ revenue systems. * Handle multi-entity and intercompany accounting. * Provide continuous reconciliation of key balance sheet accounts done daily. * Offer integrated bill pay, receipt management, and expense reporting software.
We know this transition may feel overwhelming, but you don’t have to face it alone. Docyt is here to help businesses keep their books accurate and operations seamless. Reach out to me via LinkedIn if this has affected you - we are here to help!
In particular, charging on expenses or on transaction volume isn't aligned with value generated. Instead, bookkeepers should charge on "anomalous transactions identified and corrected"
https://www.ledgerup.ai/ (a YC co) has a bookkeeping agent integrated with quickbooks. I've migrated to them after trying Fondo (also a YC co) and a local SMB bookkeeper in the past.
There's so many YC backed bookkeepers - Pilot, Afternoon, Fondo, LedgerUp
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42547803
also on tech crunch: https://techcrunch.com/2024/12/30/bench-to-be-acquired-after...
As a reference point their MONTHLY rate would get you 1-2 hours of senior associate time at a B4 provider.
It's the equivalent of hopping onto fiverr and hiring a coder after sorting by low price, and then being surprised when you receive LLM code that doesn't compile. It's entirely your own fault if you thought that would work...
[0] http://web.archive.org/web/20241223225539/https://www.bench....
If there's an opportunity to open-source this code so people who can't simply migrate to one option after considering many, self-hosting might be an option at least in the interim.
Accounting software is not novel, multi-tenancy and multi-entity is not a novel feature.
There are plenty of accounting platforms that do a lot of this, if not most, and are self hosted or you can run in your own cloud.
Odoo is an easy one that comes to mind, plenty of others.
GNUCash isn't really a business accounting platform.
Accounting firm run by an entrepreneur that specializes in small to medium size businesses.
Offering free migration/onboarding for the first 100 clients who join them from Bench.
7 years with bench and just renewed the annual plan last month. Seems like it’s unlikely we’ll see any refund for the 11 months remaining. Very frustrating to have to mirage somewhere else and pay for 2024 catch up.
Anyone looking help with only LLC & personal takes then just email me here and we'll help you out: vip@joinotto.com
Edit, found it myself: https://www.reddit.com/r/Accounting/comments/1hnhoxq/comment...
Doing my best wish someone would help.
>Have CREATE EXTENSION IF NOT EXISTS postgis; installed.
Why is postgis a requirement for an accounting package?
Bookkeeping is easy but labor intensive. Dealing with US tax law... That's when you spend on a local CPA.
We're sorry to hear about Bench shutting down, particularly coming into tax season.
As a company that specializes in solopreneur finance (formation, accounting, tax and payroll) we know that this time of year is stressful as is. If Collective can support or help you and your business in any way, please reach out at http://collective.com, join one of our Q+A sessions, or reach out to me at hooman@collective.com.
If we're a good fit for your business, use the code HERETOHELP to get a discount off of your membership.
We have years of experience working with former Bench customers and our team is working through the weekend to help any small businesses who need urgent help. We're here to support you.
If you're an employee that was impacted, we also have lots of job openings at www.collective.com/careers.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/hooman_financial-solutions-re...
I wonder why that place can't compete with American cities, i think even Toronto /Montreal is more successful than Vancouver.
for one the low salary must be demoralizing on top of being one of the most expensive cities in the world.
have there been notable canadian startup unicorn that turned IPO or major acquisition (100x ROI and up?) other than Shopify?
seems like nobody can really compete with America when it comes to creating IPOs and billionaires.
This is another way of saying American tech VCs throw a lot of money around, often into poor investments, in the hope of cornering the market on $nextBigThing. In a world where any Tom, Dick and Harry can run up massive losses and still IPO through an SPAC, how is that an indicator of anything good?
Anyone can IPO, but few earn money doing it. In the last 10 years, how many owners made any significant money IPO-ing through an SPAC? The market has mostly rewarded good businesses with cash flow and profits and growth, and others have lagged behind a relatively risk-less SP500 investment.
This very thread is an example of yet another business shutting down because the business couldn’t achieve the desired profit margins. If the owners could have IPO’d and made money, they would have.
If owners are holding stock (instead of say, options), then the only reason to IPO would be if they can sell the stock on the secondary market at a profit. They wouldn't need to IPO to raise capital, the VCs can offer that. So what would be event where such a SPAC IPO wouldn't make money for the founder?
I'm the founder/CEO of Digits - if you're a tech startup on Bench, we'd love to work together. Reach out to vip@digits.com and we'll extend our friends/family discount and make this as painless for you as possible.
So disgruntled customers are finding the page and complain, competitors are finding the page to use for lead generation.
(But the specific accounts mentioned by the GP were a bit of a special case.)
> Stratton Oakmont, Inc. was a Long Island, New York, over-the-counter brokerage house founded in 1989 by Jordan Belfort and Danny Porush. It defrauded many shareholders, leading to the arrest and incarceration of several executives and the closing of the firm in 1996.
It's the company from the Wolf of Wall street.
Here's my best articulation of specifically what makes it hard: https://waseem.substack.com/p/tech-enabled-services
I just want the service.
Sometimes being a Pilot customer feels like I’m being experimented on. Instead of humans reliably doing our books, now I need to hire a fractional CFO (which you conveniently also provide) to double check your work.
We find errors in our Pilot books at a staggering rate. Things that would never be missed if we just had a human bookkeeper.
The value prop for a “tech enabled service” from a customers perspective is non-existent. It’s not cheaper for the customer (I pay you over $25k/yr for doing very little), the quality isn’t any better, and as we see with Bench (who also raised $100 million) there’s incredible risk in relying on it as a business critical service.
Anyone reading this, just please go hire a human bookkeeper. Don’t believe the marketing spin pitched by these tech enabled services companies.
And yes, we can do 2024 catch-up work.
(waseem@pilot.com if folks have any specific questions)
Hint: ask the salesman what happens in the event of an IRS audit. A good local CPA will go to the wall for you. Will the service you're considering do the same?
Check out our services on our site (www.afino.ai) and book a priority meeting to talk to me and my team (https://app.reclaim.ai/m/afino/priority-intro)
Bookkeeping starts at $500/mo, Fed + State Taxes at $2,400. We do a long list of FP&A and fractional CFO services as needed. We get our prospects a detailed quote from just a 30-min call.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity-7278469880629067776-...
DayZero - ondayzero.com - or send me an email michelle@ondayzero.com. Always happy to be a resource
All the more reason to self-host your own archived versions of bookmarks...
Recently, I've started messing around with vimwiki and saving pages as PDF or as safari web archive.
Real people.
Won't bore you with technical talk, your books will simply be done. You will be tax ready and tax efficient.
Last, but not least, you will have everything you need to grow at your fingertips.
We simply want 100 clients.
We'll focus on 100 of you and continue to the moon together.
His contact info is below.
Nate Coughran info@cookiefinance.co