British magician Darren Brown aired a TV special called "The System" revealing a foolproof method which allowed him to provide the name of the winning horse to a lucky person who randomly responded to his newspaper advertisement in time for that person to bet on the race and win. He continued doing this with that person for six more races over six consecutive weeks - with that person betting their own money and winning each time, beating astronomical odds and winning quite a large sum. The bets were real, legally placed in advance on televised races at regulated betting parlors and the person really randomly responded to the ad without knowing Brown beforehand. For the last race Brown and the person met at the race track but for all the prior races Brown didn't even know when or where the person would place their bet. He really had no involvement or even contact, other than sending the name of the horse to bet on via email once a week.
Of course, it's (sort of) a very clever trick. All is revealed in the show (now on Brown's YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR970Y10WNw). I showed it to my kid who had recently asked me about a state lottery billboard claiming "Someone has to win!" and it proved to be an entertainingly effective answer as well as providing some good ways to think critically about gambling propositions.
a12k 21 days ago [-]
I heard about a similar trick once in the framework of a scam, which may be the same (I'm not willing to watch this much youtube for the payoff), where out of the 1,000 people that reached out for answers to a 50/50 bet of some sort, they provided 50% of them one answer, and 50% the other. Out of the 50% that won, they provided 50% one answer and 50% another. Leading to a situation where eventually you had a small group of people who had received correct "lottery" or whatever answers five or six times in a row, priming them to believe the scammer had some major advantage. Then the scammer charged that last group of 15 or 30 some large amount of money to receive the last answer, and so on with the winners of that bet.
SapporoChris 21 days ago [-]
I am confident some of the stock advisor websites are doing the same thing. Just sending out random advice and collecting subscriptions from the winners.
from-nibly 20 days ago [-]
If stock advisors had secret knowledge that helped them make money on the stock market they would use it to make money on the stock market not tell people about it.
hakfoo 20 days ago [-]
In the stock market, though, saying "I know $FOOBAR is going to overperform on earnings" could trigger other people to pump the price and INCREASE your payout.
Conversely, if you know Santa's Little Helper is going to win the 6th race and told everyone, that would drive DOWN the odds and your potential payout. You'd have to have insider knowledge, then fabricate and disseminate a lie so that the actual winner gets bid down to 99:1 least-favourite before the race.
So the incentive model is different. In a way, in the stock market, being seen as a psychic genius can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. $FOOBAR doubled in price because people chased your prediction, not due to fundamentals.
dleink 20 days ago [-]
In both finance and sportsbetting I assume anyone giving out information is part of a long con.
vlovich123 20 days ago [-]
That’s basically the scam. At the end he has her bet one extra time and she loses. Except it’s revealed that Darren Brown had swapped out her ticket for the winning ticket somehow. Very likely he just placed bets on all horses and then did a sleight of hand to give her the winning ticket before she opened it. In other words he spent $20k of the show’s budget placing bets on all 5 horses and gave her the $13k of the winnings that were reclaimed from having bought a winning ticket.
mrandish 20 days ago [-]
That's not what happened nor is it how he accomplished the "trick". There's no slight of hand or trickery. Everything is fully revealed near the end of the special on YouTube (which I linked). She won every bet, including the last. He never had any of her tickets nor did he even see her place her bets.
It's much simpler than that. Although the show appears in the beginning like it's a "magic trick" (though that is never actually claimed), in the end the audience is clearly shown how there's no trick at all. It's all simple probability and there really is no way to "beat the odds". Which IMHO is ultimately more entertaining and valuable than just some slight of hand or magic trickery.
wfleming 20 days ago [-]
Vlovich is describing the very last race only, where he did place the final bet. He takes her 4k and tells her he’s going to place the bet for her so how much she’ll win is a surprise. The horse he said he would bet on loses the race and then he reveals he actually bet on the winner. So for that race and that race only I do think he just bet on every horse and sleight-of-handed the right ticket to her. Timestamp 35:20 in the video you linked earlier. Right after that he explains how the “trick” worked for all the earlier races, which is what you’re referring to.
mrandish 20 days ago [-]
It's been several years since I watched it, so it appears I'm not remembering the circumstances of the last race clearly. I remember a race where there were multiple volunteer bettors at the track who were unaware of each other and only one of them won. Maybe that was the second to last race.
Anyway, I apologize for my error in recollection. I sincerely remember the gist of the show being as I described. Another reminder that memory can sometimes be weirdly porous yet not be correctly 'flagged' with an appropriate sense of uncertainty.
ErrantX 20 days ago [-]
You might be misremembering (it's my fav DB show btw...)
It's not really revealed how he does the last trick. In the last bet she believes she loses because the horse he tips doesn't win - and during the race he reveals there is no system.
However, he places the final bet - not her - and after the race ends she opens the ticket to find it's placed on the winner, not the tipped horse.
Almost certainly it's slight of hand (which he is excellent at) but that is never revealed.
mrandish 20 days ago [-]
Yes, it's been several years since I watched it, so I guess I'm not remembering it clearly. I remember a race where there were multiple volunteer bettors at the track who were unaware of each other and only one of them won. Maybe that was the second to last race.
Anyway, I apologize for my error in recollection. I sincerely remember the gist of the show being as I described. Another reminder that memory can sometimes be weirdly porous yet not be correctly 'flagged' with an appropriate sense of uncertainty.
vlovich123 19 days ago [-]
That’s fine. It was indeed the penultimate race shown where each bettor recorded themselves. The ultimate race had him and the lady and supposedly no other bettors. I take that at face value leaving betting on all horses and sleight of hand as the more likely explanation.
slyall 21 days ago [-]
A version of it was on the UK series "Minder". Broadcast 40 years ago
"Alfred Hitchcock Presents" had an episode, "Mail Order Prophet", that was this (66 years ago).
madeofpalk 20 days ago [-]
This is the plot of some daytime court drama tv/movie I half-saw ages ago when I was a kid like 15-20 years ago.
It really stuck in my head for some reason, but never been able to figure out what show/movie it was.
vunderba 21 days ago [-]
yeah - this one was very popular in seasonal sports like football.
wnevets 21 days ago [-]
the social media version is to post all of the possible outcomes to a sporting event like the super bowl a year in advance, deletes the ones that missed then claim your a sport genius using the "correct" prediction made a year ago as proof.
rvba 20 days ago [-]
Or just change the date of the post (if possible)
segfaultbuserr 21 days ago [-]
Is a binary search involved in this "gambling system"?
gmiller123456 21 days ago [-]
You get so many respondents, you can give them all different combinations. Each race you disregard the losers, and when the population gets low enough you might miss a race, you just say "hey, I predicted x races, call Bob to confirm".
mrandish 21 days ago [-]
Yes, that's basically how it worked. To be clear, Brown was careful to promote and run it for entertainment and not a scam. He made very clear up front that those choosing to participate were very likely to lose their money and insisted that the early bet amounts were minimal "fun money". The ever-shrinking number of those continuing to later rounds had made enough from earlier wins to offset the later eventual loss.
21 days ago [-]
IshKebab 20 days ago [-]
> All is revealed in the show
He may have done it like this for real (I haven't seen the show), but just be aware that part of Derren Brown's magic is that the "reveal" is still part of the act. Often he claims to have done things using psychological effects but actually it's just traditional magic.
Clever really because nobody believes magic really exists today, but plenty of people believe in stuff like hypnosis and NLP.
It went kind of hilariously wrong for his "wisdom of the crowds" explanation for predicting the lottery - that one was too blatantly bullshit for most people and they screwed up the CGI fakery.
(I watched it years ago and haven't rewatched it but IIRC he has a whole NLP explanation for what was clearly sleight of hand performed days ago off camera.)
GrantMoyer 20 days ago [-]
Plenty of people believe in NLP (Natural Language Processing), indeed.
thaumasiotes 20 days ago [-]
In this context, "neurolinguistic programming".
refulgentis 20 days ago [-]
> Often he claims to have done things using psychological effects but actually it's just traditional magic.
Lots to unpack here. :)
21 days ago [-]
vajrabum 21 days ago [-]
Here are two papers referenced in the article. This one inspired Bill Benter
This is really interesting. It's not unlike building a credit bureau model like a FICO score. Just trying to find a probability of likelihood outcome.
notforviewingit 20 days ago [-]
People are mythologising making money by gambling. In terms of tech the industry is like 20 years behind the financial markets.
Source, I worked at company that did arbitrage in online sports betting in 2010s that employed around 30 or so people and did hundreds of millions in profit.
shkkmo 20 days ago [-]
This story predates that period by well over a decade. Even if the company you worked for isn't one of the ones named towards the end of the article, it is very likely that the company you worked for was in some way connected with people from either or both of Benter's or Woods' operations.
notforviewingit 20 days ago [-]
I doubt there is a strong link between the founders of my old employer and Benter or Woods. My old employer did totally different kind of betting. No blackjack or horses.
In general people overestimate how hard it is to make money in gambling. You don't need to be some kind of savant to do it. The people in general are similar to what you would find in your average tech company. Sure there is a founder with a vision and some sort of an insight into making money, but every company has one.
sourcepluck 20 days ago [-]
Could you share the name of your former employer, or if you can't, could you share the name of similar employers?
I'm on a bit of a probability (gambling, sports betting, stats, etc) kick these days, and I'd be interested in reading more about people and companies doing this in practice. I'd been imagining there must be organised sports gamblers, but they don't seem to be overly searchable.
notforviewingit 20 days ago [-]
I don’t know exactly how these companies make their money and how successful they are, but I at least believe all of them are in the odds computation business. They might be supplying prices to bookmakers instead of betting themselves etc.
Longshot Systems
Football Radar
Gambit Research
SportsRadar
Odds Reactor
Star Lizard
Smartodds
Smarkets
These companies are known more for their HFT trading in financial markets, but I believe they have also expanded into sports betting.
jane street
jump trading
Susquehanna
Also some of the bookmakers such as matchbook have started as betting group and then overtime turned into a bookmaker as that is where the real money is.
sourcepluck 20 days ago [-]
Thank you, that's wonderful, I'll be sleuthing there and getting a feel for things. Cheers!
Oh wow, it's happening there! I've followed and starred and bookmarked and all that, and will be having a browse around a bit more closely when I get a moment. I think I'm roughly understanding what the group is about. I'll follow up, thanks!
Certainly helped to be early in that particular market. It certainly helped that Hammersmith lot.
josephg 20 days ago [-]
Yeah; I briefly did some consulting work at a sports betting company. They have a database of hundreds of people who are essentially banned because they’re too good at picking winners, and the betting company loses money having them as clients.
Internally they track how much each account wins & loses. If you win too much, the site gives you worse and worse odds until eventually you’re banned entirely. The reverse is also true: if you’re a terrible better, the site gives you better odds hoping to keep you coming back for more.
They have a whole team whose job it is to instantly block smart betters from opening new accounts. Accounts opened in the name of their girlfriends is the classic thing they watch out for.
Some of the smartest gamblers also get hired as quants, and help figure out what the odds should be on the site.
notforviewingit 20 days ago [-]
In Europe bookies just get rid of good players, except for the exchanges and Pinnacle. No one serious will gamble with European bookmakers. Though maybe this has changed lately. I have not been following field recently.
In Asia the bookies are a lot more tolerant, especially the larger ones. You really have to hit their pnl hard for you to get cut off.
18 days ago [-]
brudgers 22 days ago [-]
Could survivor bias be a more likely explanation than a good system? I mean among a large pool of people systematically betting on horse racing, a few are likely to have winning outcomes.
mkj 21 days ago [-]
Quite possible. David Walsh (of Tasmania's MoMA) had a similar betting system to make his fortune. A story/warning he told to a hedge fund conference was that he _did_ think his system was infallible/bound to win, but revisiting the calculations later it turned out the expected value would be failure - he just happened to win at the right moments, initially. (Australian Financial Review article from a couple of years ago)
RossBencina 20 days ago [-]
*MoNA, Museum of Old and New Art
mkj 20 days ago [-]
Urgh yes. Thanks
caminante 21 days ago [-]
It's closer to a hedge fund finding asymmetries (e.g., under/over valued odds by bookmakers, bulk buying strategies when phone buying is turned off, etc.) plus some structural benefits (e.g., HK was a gambler's dream. Winnings were exempt from taxation! And the "pit boss" for the horse-racing scene wasn't kicking them out.)
These don't apply to all horse-racing scenes.
These advantages emerge, but get competed away.
Look at how the protagonists here were in black jack card counting teams. They do make money until they get blacklisted.
brudgers 21 days ago [-]
If you have a large bankroll and a relationships with track staff etc, past posting would be an available system.
Or to put it another way, social engineering is usually a more reliable hack than technical means. I mean his card counting at blackjack was a team sport.
Hedge funds trade on inside information because making money is the goal. Not style points.
sourcepluck 20 days ago [-]
I only learned yesterday after reading this article that, apparently, a good many countries have no taxes on gambling wins. The reasoning is - again, from my quick bit of reading, if someone in the know wants to correct me please do - that most people lose, and the government doesn't want to be liable to help all the people who lose heavily.
Which is great for the pros, I suppose. Here's a list of countries, which you'd have to check individually, after I searched "gambling tax free countries":
Austria
Australia
Belgium
Bulgaria
Canada
Czech Republic
Denmark
Finland
Germany
Hungary
Italy
Luxembourg
Malta
Romania
Sweden
United Kingdom
sourcepluck 20 days ago [-]
Hmm, reading a bit more on the same article, i.e., this one here:
> The laws concerning gambling tax around the world aren’t all black and white. In most cases, there is a sort of gray area which states that you will be taxed on winnings if gambling is your profession or your main source of income. However, if you gamble and win but you have a bigger source of income and don’t rely on professional gambling to pay the bills, you won’t be taxed.
In other countries, like Kenya and Ireland, players aren’t taxed on their winnings, but bookies must pay a certain percentage of taxes on the total bets or winnings they record. In Ireland bookies must pay 1% on all bets placed through them, while in Kenya bookies have to pay 7.5% tax on all winnings they record.
xxs 20 days ago [-]
I am to provide some context, in many of those countries people do not normally fill in tax reports, themselves, either. Lots of those countries have rather sophisticated regulations when it comes to gambling.
Take Italy which (along the UK) has one of the largest gambling market and the strictest regulations. Effectively every bet is sent to the regulator in near real time and some stuff like bringing money to the table (game) requires an explicit approval of the regular beforehand. To put it simply taxing the gambling firms, that already need a license, is much easier.
There are monthly reports, regulator mandated vaults that have to reflect the state of each player, including all bets and wins done, player (and operator) set limits (e.g deposit limits)
So overall not taxing the end user is a good choice, it just it's a lot more involved that just 'no taxation'
Allybag 20 days ago [-]
I am a professional automated sports gambler, and I win basically every day, and the handful of losing days I have per quarter are significantly smaller than the average daily win.
If you place enough bets (I make about 15k bets each day that are matched) that have a positive expected value your chances of a losing day become pretty low.
For example, I had a losing day on Christmas Day, but was only able to place about 500 bets as it was such a big holiday that there were almost no events.
wodenokoto 20 days ago [-]
How do you place so many? When you read about small fish manually betting on sports sites they get kicked off when winning too much.
Allybag 20 days ago [-]
It’s automated, I bet on a betting exchange which has an API, so the bets get placed without any input from me.
As it’s a betting exchange they don’t care if you win or lose as you aren’t winning money from them, but they start to take steeper cuts of your profits if you’re a regular winner above some threshold that a random punter is very unlikely to hit.
anoncow 20 days ago [-]
Teach me your ways.
le-mark 20 days ago [-]
These guys never talk about the details. Either they’re LARPing or there’s something to it. “Betting exchange” is your clue. I’ve followed this thread before. Apparently the exchanges are mostly in Asia and allow people to buy and sell bets. So presumably this person is placing bets well before the date the event occurs and using them to arbitrage the result as the event nears. This is due to line movement up to the event. To participate in this you have to use btc/crypto and risk being ripped off with no legal recourse. Also presumably there’s a system around what bet to place when. They never talk about that.
Allybag 19 days ago [-]
To give some details, the main betting exchange I use is Betfair, a UK betting company part of the same group that own Fanduel, and I place bets for or against outcomes in the last half an hour before the start. For example, you can back a team to win meaning you make a certain amount if the team wins, but you can also lay a team, meaning that if that team doesn’t win (another team wins or it’s a draw) you win that bet, with a payout of inverse the odds. There is no crypto involved, just GBP, and Betfair is a multibillion dollar company paying taxes and subject to the law and the UK regulating bodies. I have a model to predict short term movement in the odds, which is not amazing but enough better than random that it can overcome the fees and spread between the back and lay odds and be profitable.
Any further questions?
anoncow 19 days ago [-]
Thanks for answering. What are your overall monthly earnings in percentage? 0.5%, 1%? Is this too high or too low?
Allybag 18 days ago [-]
If you mean as a percentage of my investment, it’s about 1000%, but I can’t scale up further, so it doesn’t grow exponentially. If I increased my stake tenfold I wouldn’t be making more bets or more money. It’s like with market makers or Renaissance Technology, I’m limited by the market opportunity so the roi or sharpe ratio or whatever don’t really make sense.
le-mark 17 days ago [-]
Concretely the “market opportunity” is volatility in odds movement for a particular event? Or amount of bets on either side of an event?
Too bad no exchanges are available from the US. Has anyone gotten around this wit vpn or some such?
refulgentis 20 days ago [-]
Not even wrong, in the Pauli sense.
> allow people to buy and sell bets.
Can't sell - you can buy, or find a counterparty. The exchange part is finding a counterparty.
> placing bets well before the date the event occurs and using them to arbitrage the result as the event nears.
Narrowly correct -- we could, of course, offset our X wins bet at $100 with a Y wins bet for $20. The implication is this is done by selling bets, which as mentioned above, isn't a thing in this world.
Are there some websites where this can be done? yes.
Is it widespread? No.
Is it implied by the phrase betting exchange? No.
The implication with betting exchange is "you're not betting against us, we're not making lines, we're just matching you up with a counterparty, so our incentive structure is aligned with you, we'll build an API even. also fees are much lower, its a pure rake"
> you have to use btc/crypto and risk being ripped off with no legal recourse
Sites that only take crypto do exist, but its certainly not a given or predominant.
> Also presumably there’s a system around what bet to place when. They never talk about that.
This is confusing because:
- you spelled out a system, intuitively, that most people would grok instantly (arbitrage on the line)
- "presumably" is doing 0 work, besides implying there's some hidden secret: any system involved in placing bets would have to provide information on what bet to place. :)
Generally, I don't think it's anyones job to spell out how to pull off consistent net-positive money machine, and it's quite odd to not only want it, but expect it.
le-mark 20 days ago [-]
Thanks for the corrections; more info to refine my understanding. In a way it seems you are the book maker and the “exchange” is the platform that lets you do it (matches bettors).
Someone 20 days ago [-]
I don’t know their ways, but I expect there’s a lot of emotion in sports betting that can be exploited (bookmakers will not purely optimize for expected profit, but also want lower variance in their profits). If so, betting against clubs in rich countries where betting is popular is the better option.
Whether it beats the bookmaker’s margin I wouldn’t know.
FergusArgyll 20 days ago [-]
Always bet against the Jets
You're welcome
MaxikCZ 20 days ago [-]
And me please, ill give you some portion of my profits :P
sourcepluck 20 days ago [-]
Betfair, or somewhere else, if I may ask?
Allybag 19 days ago [-]
Yep, atm exclusively on Betfair but trying to expand.
sourcepluck 19 days ago [-]
I've probably 10 more questions, but you've already shared generously in a couple of other comments. Thanks for that. I've bookmarked, and will investigate. Best of luck with it
nycdatasci 21 days ago [-]
Definitely not luck. Bill runs with the same crowd that wrote the bible on advantage play (James Grosjean, etc). They are exceptionally talented.
skippyboxedhero 21 days ago [-]
Bill originally worked with a team of people doing this in HK (that later broke up, some of the people involved were...characters). There was a whole group of people doing this in the 90s (some of these teams also did Japan). I believe he did stuff in casinos but parimutal obviously had a lot more scale.
nycdatasci 21 days ago [-]
Exactly right. Impossible for individuals to operate at this scale. Bill led a large operation. Similarly, advantage play frequently requires teams to execute as you are often hoping to land a specific seat with a specific dealer.
ACow_Adonis 21 days ago [-]
I'm a very cynical man who has also had the honour of working for the national statistics organisation, so take what i say with a grain of salt.
While there are lots of "real and theoretical gains" to be made in gambling, a far more cynical take is that the "advanced analytics" is the frontbusiness for the real money being made by criminal enterprises, insider-trading, front-running, special access advantages, arbitrage, regulatory and competetive inefficiencies and insider-jobs.
"No no, we're all really smart see, look at this math that you don't understand, that's how we make millions while being bankrolled by mysterious money and business partners from vegas, who also by definition can't understand the math and hence can't validate what we're doing but who are totally willing to just front us a bankroll :)"
Its possible that there are certain gains left on the table, especially in old and early markets, but be wary of anyone being bankrolled by external forces and earning millions/billions and needing to explain that wealth with "smarts".
Often i wonder whether these articles that appear aren't a form of marketing or reputation laundering, but i have absolute no proof and i'm not particularly interested in looking into it much further. So you know, i'm probably way off :)
caminante 21 days ago [-]
The article is messy in that sense, but you already knew that was the reality. It's smart people that found a system they could exploit.
In poker, the top cash players win by choosing who's (i.e., lesser players) in their games, not playing against other top players. People with math acumen are most likely to find some of these anomolies like the Stats PhD who kept winning scratch off lottos.[0]
> Its possible that there are certain gains left on the table, especially in old and early markets, but be wary of anyone being bankrolled by external forces and earning millions/billions and needing to explain that wealth with "smarts".
I don't have any immediately at hand, so whether you believe some random guy on the internet from here on out on is up to you.
I actually did a little bit of private investigation myself into betting markets of a handful of sports a number of years ago out of both curiosity, and potentially profit. And I'm currently working on perceptions of skill and merit along various systems just for my own intellectual project.
I find it interesting you've discovered the systematic bias strategy of choosing your opponents and events (these are done both consciously by players in various systems, but often formally and informally supported or enabled by various governing bodies and competitive structures).
Aside from both the boredom (arbitraging and scraping stats can be meticulously dull especially in fields you have no interest in or if you lack a hustler or profit maximising mentality or significant bankroll), opportunity cost (how much you can earn in other markets with such skills given equal investment of time and safety), the moral question (you're taking money from other ignorant bettors and I personally consider a lot of gambling and exploitation of people's ignorance relatively immoral, the house/market maker in many contexts still profits just through sheer trading frequency or other profit making actions), these days you have many market makers targeting little sharps presumably because they want to keep their ignorant base happy and gambling and don't want the perception of playing agaist certain losses or against people capable of seeing through the systems to reveal internal operations.
That's the only reason I can come up with for why they target and close accounts of profitable gamblers while they're still taking the house edge on every bet as profit.
What I (of course) also informally discovered in some markets I looked into was evidence of various fixing activities and systemic biases.
Now if you were going to do this for large scale profit, one of the things you are going to have to do is stop the illusion you're modelling skill and start modelling corruption.
It's all well and good for these articles to come out and pretend skilled prediction will win you millions, but you can be the best statistician in the house and if you place bets in a game based on models of skill, but the game outcome is rigged, you can kiss goodbye to your bankroll.
Criminals win because their outcomes aren't statistical or based on skill.
And now you're suddenly in the business of modelling and fighting people who profit from rigging markets rather than morally neutral statistical models in games of skill.
You can of course model such and go down that rabbit hole, but at some point you either buy into such a world and get involved (either by being hired by or interacting with criminal and questionable enterprise) or you are effectively trying to do statistical surveillance of criminal activities... Which will then show up in the statistical patterns of your own betting activities and potentially alert said enterprises to your existence.
And that's about where I bowed out of my investigations and turned back to more theoretical work.
That's not particularly a world I want to be involved in, but I am relatively confident popular sports and markets have illicit match fixing and other activities going on in them at significant levels, but I'm not interested in fighting with or building implicit knowledge bases of people who have million dollar anonymous backers from Vegas, billion dollar contracts, and whom die from accidental sleeping pill overdoses... If you know what I mean ...
caminante 20 days ago [-]
> Now if you were going to do this for large scale profit, one of the things you are going to have to do is stop the illusion you're modelling skill and start modelling corruption.
Well...I reject that dichotomy. If someone intentionally introduces an exploit, sure. But I can think of numerous examples where someone found "bugs" and exploited them, while playing by criminal and ethical rules. It sounds like you realized that these are just rare and hard to reproduce without taking on more legal risk. Hats off to the people like the Stats PhD I linked to who ran a multi-person outfit and everyone has kept their mouth shut.
A similar exploit happened recently where a syndicate bought all of the lotto combinations. The math was straightforward, but execution was hard. They had to spin up a few licensed terminals at shuttered storefronts to execute all of the purchases. This forced a rule change.
ACow_Adonis 20 days ago [-]
Yes, that's fair. You can generally either go for the "1 time bet the house" bugs, or you can go for the salami slicing so small across many transactions and there's minimal grey areas in between...
But as a general rule there's a trade off between signal generated by your winnings vs the frequency of your trading all balanced against your power and ability to manipulate and capture the market.
If you bet big enough and pull off the implementation successfully once such that you can get away in that one time (and ensure the system doesn't respond to cancel your winnings as it will often try to due to the cost benefit of paying you out), congrats. And you can go the opposite strategy and have lots of small winnings and fly under the radar and make profit just below the cost of entry or dealing with you, but you won't make squillions.
If anyone repeatedly makes big money, what is almost certainly going on is some other expression of market power, because if you don't have that power, the real market power will make the calculations on shutting you down once you're detected.
pakitan 21 days ago [-]
You can't become a billionaire by betting on hundreds of thousands of events via "survivorship bias". It's about as likely as getting 1000 monkeys typing on typewriters and producing Shakespeare's works in 10 years.
brudgers 21 days ago [-]
You might win a billion USD in a single lottery draw.
I think only the top one of those was actually a billion. Sum of payments is poor financial math, and I really wish news agencies would grow some standards and not use them in the headlines.
Mountain_Skies 20 days ago [-]
The lottery commissions are major purchasers of advertising so don't expect the media companies to bite that hand any time soon.
pakitan 21 days ago [-]
Yes, you can. Not sure how that's relevant to the discussion though.
bryanrasmussen 21 days ago [-]
it's a typical HN Gotcha of which I myself am often guilty, given hundreds of different chances, and one of those chances can make you a billionaire, then you can become a billionaire by betting on hundreds of different chances - but of course horse race gambling doesn't give you that billion in one shot chance.
on edit - well I guess it technically does it give it, but at such a high rate of investment it isn't really that worthwhile either. The point about the lottery is that a single ticket which costs little can return a billion. A horse race that returned a billion probably needs at least a 100 million to be bet, which is probably not even possible.
brudgers 21 days ago [-]
Do you think the probability of a working system are lower than the probability of laundering money at the racetrack?
If you start with two billion, it’s relatively easy to walk away from the track with one.
bryanrasmussen 21 days ago [-]
it sounds to me like you think I've said something about the likelihood of a working system, and also that you think I am somehow in opposition to your second sentence, and require setting straight on the matter?
I admit I am at a loss how either of these suppositions could actually come to be, based on what I wrote, so I suppose I am mistaken.
brudgers 20 days ago [-]
You mentioned getting real money to make a system work.
I pointed out an ordinary mechanism by which a person could find capital.
A winning system could offer better rates to customers of a money laundering service.
20 days ago [-]
whimsicalism 21 days ago [-]
yes survivorship bias almost certainly plays a little bit, but i also imagine that there is great arbitrage on int'l horse betting markets prior to like 2012
His idea is that the odds (on the tote board) to win can be used to make a more accurate predictor for winning place and show than the place and show odds on the board. What you notice is that maybe two times a day at the track you find a horse which is favored to win and the show bet pays almost as much as the win bet and you place a Kelly-sized bet on that one.
I've found a few opportunities of that sort at the local harness racing track.
petesergeant 20 days ago [-]
I think you have no idea how confusing this comment is, given the overloading of “place” and “show”. For anyone else confused, “win” means come first, “place” means come first or second, and “show” means come in the top three. The technique being described here is using the fact that “win” odds are usually very accurate about the underlying probabilities, but for some reason “place” and “show” aren’t, so you can take advantage of the accuracy of “win” to find better-than-normal bets.
PaulHoule 20 days ago [-]
Thanks for adding that clarification.
21 days ago [-]
21 days ago [-]
patrickhogan1 21 days ago [-]
The title for Bloomberg says
“Bill Benter did the impossible: He wrote an algorithm that couldn’t lose at the track.”
The article is more nuanced. He created an EV+ system. It included tickets bought that did lose as part of the system he used. In fact buying tickets that would lose was part of his system. Along with other tickets that would win.
caminante 21 days ago [-]
Clickbait tagline indeed.
Buying 50k individual tickets to win 13 million is great ROI, but didn't see guaranteed ROI.
Also, the cover
> How to make $1 billion betting on horses
is called into question as it's alleged that at best, the firm may have made $1 billion, but not individuals. I guess a few allegedly came close? Hard to verify.
Suppafly 21 days ago [-]
like that movie about the couple that bought tons of lotto tickets
le-mark 20 days ago [-]
That happened, the story appears here from time to time.
patrickhogan1 21 days ago [-]
I noticed my previous comment was downvoted, and I'd like to better understand why. The point I raised was intended to clarify the discussion and was based on factual information.
If there's something incorrect or unclear in what I said, I’d appreciate it if you could point it out or share your perspective. It would be helpful to know if I misunderstood something or if my tone came across in a way I didn’t intend. Constructive feedback is always welcome!
Everytime I read these articles, it's just, train a ML model and beat the bookie. So simple in hindsight.
kristjansson 20 days ago [-]
Train an ML model in the early PC era from horse race data stored on paper, train a CV model in the early GPU era on parking lot data from satellites, figure out MC options pricing in the early minicomputer era (before BS) …
Being first looks simple in hindsight
sevenseacat 19 days ago [-]
Yeah, in the 1990s.
sema4hacker 21 days ago [-]
My recollection is that a variation of this scheme was the basis for a Twilight Zone episode back in the 60's.
tamaharbor 20 days ago [-]
Alfred Hitchcock?
sema4hacker 20 days ago [-]
You're right! S3E2 "Mail Order Prophet", originally aired 10/13/57, but I didn't see it until it re-ran in the 60's.
yawnxyz 21 days ago [-]
Great article, very well-written narrative, but seems to leave some things out.
Of course, it's (sort of) a very clever trick. All is revealed in the show (now on Brown's YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR970Y10WNw). I showed it to my kid who had recently asked me about a state lottery billboard claiming "Someone has to win!" and it proved to be an entertainingly effective answer as well as providing some good ways to think critically about gambling propositions.
Conversely, if you know Santa's Little Helper is going to win the 6th race and told everyone, that would drive DOWN the odds and your potential payout. You'd have to have insider knowledge, then fabricate and disseminate a lie so that the actual winner gets bid down to 99:1 least-favourite before the race.
So the incentive model is different. In a way, in the stock market, being seen as a psychic genius can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. $FOOBAR doubled in price because people chased your prediction, not due to fundamentals.
It's much simpler than that. Although the show appears in the beginning like it's a "magic trick" (though that is never actually claimed), in the end the audience is clearly shown how there's no trick at all. It's all simple probability and there really is no way to "beat the odds". Which IMHO is ultimately more entertaining and valuable than just some slight of hand or magic trickery.
Anyway, I apologize for my error in recollection. I sincerely remember the gist of the show being as I described. Another reminder that memory can sometimes be weirdly porous yet not be correctly 'flagged' with an appropriate sense of uncertainty.
It's not really revealed how he does the last trick. In the last bet she believes she loses because the horse he tips doesn't win - and during the race he reveals there is no system.
However, he places the final bet - not her - and after the race ends she opens the ticket to find it's placed on the winner, not the tipped horse.
Almost certainly it's slight of hand (which he is excellent at) but that is never revealed.
Anyway, I apologize for my error in recollection. I sincerely remember the gist of the show being as I described. Another reminder that memory can sometimes be weirdly porous yet not be correctly 'flagged' with an appropriate sense of uncertainty.
https://www.minder.org/episodeguide/S04E04_SorryPalWrongNumb...
It really stuck in my head for some reason, but never been able to figure out what show/movie it was.
He may have done it like this for real (I haven't seen the show), but just be aware that part of Derren Brown's magic is that the "reveal" is still part of the act. Often he claims to have done things using psychological effects but actually it's just traditional magic.
Clever really because nobody believes magic really exists today, but plenty of people believe in stuff like hypnosis and NLP.
It went kind of hilariously wrong for his "wisdom of the crowds" explanation for predicting the lottery - that one was too blatantly bullshit for most people and they screwed up the CGI fakery.
This is another one that always stuck in my mind:
https://youtu.be/sEmCQzueyEQ
(I watched it years ago and haven't rewatched it but IIRC he has a whole NLP explanation for what was clearly sleight of hand performed days ago off camera.)
Lots to unpack here. :)
https://gwern.net/doc/statistics/decision/1986-bolton.pdf
And Bill Benter wrote this one in 1995 describing his system
https://gwern.net/doc/statistics/decision/1994-benter.pdf
Source, I worked at company that did arbitrage in online sports betting in 2010s that employed around 30 or so people and did hundreds of millions in profit.
In general people overestimate how hard it is to make money in gambling. You don't need to be some kind of savant to do it. The people in general are similar to what you would find in your average tech company. Sure there is a founder with a vision and some sort of an insight into making money, but every company has one.
I'm on a bit of a probability (gambling, sports betting, stats, etc) kick these days, and I'd be interested in reading more about people and companies doing this in practice. I'd been imagining there must be organised sports gamblers, but they don't seem to be overly searchable.
Longshot Systems Football Radar Gambit Research SportsRadar Odds Reactor Star Lizard Smartodds Smarkets
These companies are known more for their HFT trading in financial markets, but I believe they have also expanded into sports betting.
jane street jump trading Susquehanna
Also some of the bookmakers such as matchbook have started as betting group and then overtime turned into a bookmaker as that is where the real money is.
https://github.com/betcode-org
https://join.slack.com/t/betcode-org/shared_invite/zt-2uer9n...
Internally they track how much each account wins & loses. If you win too much, the site gives you worse and worse odds until eventually you’re banned entirely. The reverse is also true: if you’re a terrible better, the site gives you better odds hoping to keep you coming back for more.
They have a whole team whose job it is to instantly block smart betters from opening new accounts. Accounts opened in the name of their girlfriends is the classic thing they watch out for.
Some of the smartest gamblers also get hired as quants, and help figure out what the odds should be on the site.
In Asia the bookies are a lot more tolerant, especially the larger ones. You really have to hit their pnl hard for you to get cut off.
These don't apply to all horse-racing scenes.
These advantages emerge, but get competed away.
Look at how the protagonists here were in black jack card counting teams. They do make money until they get blacklisted.
Or to put it another way, social engineering is usually a more reliable hack than technical means. I mean his card counting at blackjack was a team sport.
Hedge funds trade on inside information because making money is the goal. Not style points.
Which is great for the pros, I suppose. Here's a list of countries, which you'd have to check individually, after I searched "gambling tax free countries":
https://www.vegasmaster.com/gambling-tax-free-countries/
I see these relevant lines:
Take Italy which (along the UK) has one of the largest gambling market and the strictest regulations. Effectively every bet is sent to the regulator in near real time and some stuff like bringing money to the table (game) requires an explicit approval of the regular beforehand. To put it simply taxing the gambling firms, that already need a license, is much easier.
There are monthly reports, regulator mandated vaults that have to reflect the state of each player, including all bets and wins done, player (and operator) set limits (e.g deposit limits)
So overall not taxing the end user is a good choice, it just it's a lot more involved that just 'no taxation'
If you place enough bets (I make about 15k bets each day that are matched) that have a positive expected value your chances of a losing day become pretty low.
For example, I had a losing day on Christmas Day, but was only able to place about 500 bets as it was such a big holiday that there were almost no events.
As it’s a betting exchange they don’t care if you win or lose as you aren’t winning money from them, but they start to take steeper cuts of your profits if you’re a regular winner above some threshold that a random punter is very unlikely to hit.
Any further questions?
Too bad no exchanges are available from the US. Has anyone gotten around this wit vpn or some such?
> allow people to buy and sell bets.
Can't sell - you can buy, or find a counterparty. The exchange part is finding a counterparty.
> placing bets well before the date the event occurs and using them to arbitrage the result as the event nears.
Narrowly correct -- we could, of course, offset our X wins bet at $100 with a Y wins bet for $20. The implication is this is done by selling bets, which as mentioned above, isn't a thing in this world.
Are there some websites where this can be done? yes.
Is it widespread? No.
Is it implied by the phrase betting exchange? No.
The implication with betting exchange is "you're not betting against us, we're not making lines, we're just matching you up with a counterparty, so our incentive structure is aligned with you, we'll build an API even. also fees are much lower, its a pure rake"
> you have to use btc/crypto and risk being ripped off with no legal recourse
Sites that only take crypto do exist, but its certainly not a given or predominant.
> Also presumably there’s a system around what bet to place when. They never talk about that.
This is confusing because:
- you spelled out a system, intuitively, that most people would grok instantly (arbitrage on the line)
- "presumably" is doing 0 work, besides implying there's some hidden secret: any system involved in placing bets would have to provide information on what bet to place. :)
Generally, I don't think it's anyones job to spell out how to pull off consistent net-positive money machine, and it's quite odd to not only want it, but expect it.
Whether it beats the bookmaker’s margin I wouldn’t know.
You're welcome
While there are lots of "real and theoretical gains" to be made in gambling, a far more cynical take is that the "advanced analytics" is the frontbusiness for the real money being made by criminal enterprises, insider-trading, front-running, special access advantages, arbitrage, regulatory and competetive inefficiencies and insider-jobs.
"No no, we're all really smart see, look at this math that you don't understand, that's how we make millions while being bankrolled by mysterious money and business partners from vegas, who also by definition can't understand the math and hence can't validate what we're doing but who are totally willing to just front us a bankroll :)"
Its possible that there are certain gains left on the table, especially in old and early markets, but be wary of anyone being bankrolled by external forces and earning millions/billions and needing to explain that wealth with "smarts".
Often i wonder whether these articles that appear aren't a form of marketing or reputation laundering, but i have absolute no proof and i'm not particularly interested in looking into it much further. So you know, i'm probably way off :)
In poker, the top cash players win by choosing who's (i.e., lesser players) in their games, not playing against other top players. People with math acumen are most likely to find some of these anomolies like the Stats PhD who kept winning scratch off lottos.[0]
> Its possible that there are certain gains left on the table, especially in old and early markets, but be wary of anyone being bankrolled by external forces and earning millions/billions and needing to explain that wealth with "smarts".
Do you have favorite examples in mind?
[0] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023514/Joan-R-Gint...
I actually did a little bit of private investigation myself into betting markets of a handful of sports a number of years ago out of both curiosity, and potentially profit. And I'm currently working on perceptions of skill and merit along various systems just for my own intellectual project.
I find it interesting you've discovered the systematic bias strategy of choosing your opponents and events (these are done both consciously by players in various systems, but often formally and informally supported or enabled by various governing bodies and competitive structures).
Aside from both the boredom (arbitraging and scraping stats can be meticulously dull especially in fields you have no interest in or if you lack a hustler or profit maximising mentality or significant bankroll), opportunity cost (how much you can earn in other markets with such skills given equal investment of time and safety), the moral question (you're taking money from other ignorant bettors and I personally consider a lot of gambling and exploitation of people's ignorance relatively immoral, the house/market maker in many contexts still profits just through sheer trading frequency or other profit making actions), these days you have many market makers targeting little sharps presumably because they want to keep their ignorant base happy and gambling and don't want the perception of playing agaist certain losses or against people capable of seeing through the systems to reveal internal operations.
That's the only reason I can come up with for why they target and close accounts of profitable gamblers while they're still taking the house edge on every bet as profit.
What I (of course) also informally discovered in some markets I looked into was evidence of various fixing activities and systemic biases.
Now if you were going to do this for large scale profit, one of the things you are going to have to do is stop the illusion you're modelling skill and start modelling corruption.
It's all well and good for these articles to come out and pretend skilled prediction will win you millions, but you can be the best statistician in the house and if you place bets in a game based on models of skill, but the game outcome is rigged, you can kiss goodbye to your bankroll.
Criminals win because their outcomes aren't statistical or based on skill.
And now you're suddenly in the business of modelling and fighting people who profit from rigging markets rather than morally neutral statistical models in games of skill.
You can of course model such and go down that rabbit hole, but at some point you either buy into such a world and get involved (either by being hired by or interacting with criminal and questionable enterprise) or you are effectively trying to do statistical surveillance of criminal activities... Which will then show up in the statistical patterns of your own betting activities and potentially alert said enterprises to your existence.
And that's about where I bowed out of my investigations and turned back to more theoretical work.
That's not particularly a world I want to be involved in, but I am relatively confident popular sports and markets have illicit match fixing and other activities going on in them at significant levels, but I'm not interested in fighting with or building implicit knowledge bases of people who have million dollar anonymous backers from Vegas, billion dollar contracts, and whom die from accidental sleeping pill overdoses... If you know what I mean ...
Well...I reject that dichotomy. If someone intentionally introduces an exploit, sure. But I can think of numerous examples where someone found "bugs" and exploited them, while playing by criminal and ethical rules. It sounds like you realized that these are just rare and hard to reproduce without taking on more legal risk. Hats off to the people like the Stats PhD I linked to who ran a multi-person outfit and everyone has kept their mouth shut.
A similar exploit happened recently where a syndicate bought all of the lotto combinations. The math was straightforward, but execution was hard. They had to spin up a few licensed terminals at shuttered storefronts to execute all of the purchases. This forced a rule change.
But as a general rule there's a trade off between signal generated by your winnings vs the frequency of your trading all balanced against your power and ability to manipulate and capture the market.
If you bet big enough and pull off the implementation successfully once such that you can get away in that one time (and ensure the system doesn't respond to cancel your winnings as it will often try to due to the cost benefit of paying you out), congrats. And you can go the opposite strategy and have lots of small winnings and fly under the radar and make profit just below the cost of entry or dealing with you, but you won't make squillions.
If anyone repeatedly makes big money, what is almost certainly going on is some other expression of market power, because if you don't have that power, the real market power will make the calculations on shutting you down once you're detected.
https://www.nytimes.com/article/lottery-jackpot-record-power...
on edit - well I guess it technically does it give it, but at such a high rate of investment it isn't really that worthwhile either. The point about the lottery is that a single ticket which costs little can return a billion. A horse race that returned a billion probably needs at least a 100 million to be bet, which is probably not even possible.
If you start with two billion, it’s relatively easy to walk away from the track with one.
I admit I am at a loss how either of these suppositions could actually come to be, based on what I wrote, so I suppose I am mistaken.
I pointed out an ordinary mechanism by which a person could find capital.
A winning system could offer better rates to customers of a money laundering service.
https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Beat-Racetrack-William-Ziemba/dp/0...
His idea is that the odds (on the tote board) to win can be used to make a more accurate predictor for winning place and show than the place and show odds on the board. What you notice is that maybe two times a day at the track you find a horse which is favored to win and the show bet pays almost as much as the win bet and you place a Kelly-sized bet on that one.
I've found a few opportunities of that sort at the local harness racing track.
“Bill Benter did the impossible: He wrote an algorithm that couldn’t lose at the track.”
The article is more nuanced. He created an EV+ system. It included tickets bought that did lose as part of the system he used. In fact buying tickets that would lose was part of his system. Along with other tickets that would win.
Buying 50k individual tickets to win 13 million is great ROI, but didn't see guaranteed ROI.
Also, the cover
> How to make $1 billion betting on horses
is called into question as it's alleged that at best, the firm may have made $1 billion, but not individuals. I guess a few allegedly came close? Hard to verify.
If there's something incorrect or unclear in what I said, I’d appreciate it if you could point it out or share your perspective. It would be helpful to know if I misunderstood something or if my tone came across in a way I didn’t intend. Constructive feedback is always welcome!
Some discussion then:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16985413
And in 2019:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20865312
2021:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26992070
Being first looks simple in hindsight
From 2018 (please add tag)