First time I visited the US it was Houston, Texas. My host was perplexed because I laughed out loud while we were driving. Experiencing highways and those massive gas stations felt like someone had made a state that mocked America by taking prejudices we have about the American traffic and making them 200% larger in real life. My mind was blown.
hoten 148 days ago [-]
Houston native here. I still guffaw when I see a massively lifted truck (but with a pristine bed, no scratches - so not even a work truck).
Everything's bigger in Texas, including egos.
TrainedMonkey 148 days ago [-]
> Everything's bigger in Texas, including egos.
Crucially, Texans are highly aware of "everything is bigger in Texas" trope and take pride in it. My favorite example is that everyone knows that Texas State Capitol is taller than United States Capitol (92.24m vs 88m)... But nobody will ever tell you that Texas State Capitol is only 6th tallest state capitol.
> My favorite example is that everyone knows that Texas State Capitol is taller than United States Capitol (92.24m vs 88m)... But nobody will ever tell you that Texas State Capitol is only 6th tallest state capitol.
I guessed Nebraska, but was wrong. It’s Louisiana. Both finished in 1932, oddly.
The Texas State Capitol wasn’t the tallest state capitol finished in 1888 - that would have been Illinois - but it certainly was the largest. Indiana also finished their capitol in 1888, but was the shortest of the three. Weird how they seem to bunch up, as if there is some sort of “let’s build a capitol!” movement that takes hold from time to time.
i believe around the same time the empire state building was constructed as well.
next_xibalba 147 days ago [-]
Texan here. My experience has been quite different.
I lived in Austin for 7 years and I had no idea about this fact.
Whenever the whole "everything is bigger in Texas" comes up, everyone smiles and rolls their eyes. I now live in Houston and its the same. People here think its kind of a joke. Though Texans definitely do take pride in Texas. I just don't think they take themselves as seriously as your comment suggests.
trepanne 147 days ago [-]
Authentic Texan-ness is manifested by the slogan that used to be painted on the side of Goode Company BBQ:
“You might give some serious thought to thanking your lucky stars you’re in Texas.”
And Kinky Friedman.
otteromkram 147 days ago [-]
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adamisom 147 days ago [-]
Heh, only the laughingstock to you and your bubble, I guess
Yes I remember that accident. I live and ride in that area. I wonder what happened.
psunavy03 148 days ago [-]
The best analogy I've heard for explaining Texas to non-Americans is that Americans view Texans the same way the rest of the world views Americans.
fuzztester 148 days ago [-]
>Americans view Texans the same way the rest of the world views Americans.
Reversing some of the substrings in that string would also result in a very good analogy.
fuzztester 148 days ago [-]
Like:
Texans view Americans the same way Americans view the rest of the world - derisively, but it is those viewers who should be derided, and often are, by the groups that they deride.
Zircom 147 days ago [-]
My partner got me this shirt and I love wearing it, not because of any sort of state pride just because I think it's absurdly hilarious.
So you're telling me that these big macho guys from Texas did gender reassignment surgery on their vehicles?
Slow_Hand 147 days ago [-]
Yup. If you add nuts to your truck and it didn't come out of the factory with them, then your truck is trans.
hoten 147 days ago [-]
Yeah...
dreamcompiler 146 days ago [-]
Every country has a Texas. In Canada it's Alberta. In Germany it's Bavaria.
deegles 148 days ago [-]
Texas is the America of America.
mulmen 147 days ago [-]
America is a melting pot. It’s thousands of cultures at once. Acceptance is America. Texas is part of America. It’s no more American than Washington, Montana, or New York.
MisterBastahrd 147 days ago [-]
Texas is a giant strip mall with football stadiums and megachurches sprinkled throughout.
mulmen 147 days ago [-]
Texas is a lot more than that, certainly.
consteval 147 days ago [-]
Texas can be a lot more than that. There's a lot of culture here, particularly in South Texas. But there's also contention. There's a disdain for that part of Texas. And the washed out, strip mall side of Texas wants very badly to make it seem like they're all there is. The boredom, the normality, the white picket fence, is a plague. It spreads and sucks the color out of everything, like The Wizard of Oz but in reverse.
qorrect 147 days ago [-]
Very well said.
specialist 147 days ago [-]
Florida minus DisneyWorld.
arrowsmith 147 days ago [-]
So, like America?
TheCraiggers 148 days ago [-]
For me, this will always be Las Vegas. Walking the strip my first time while at a conference was enlightening. Seeing all the American tropes that I'd seen in foreign media within a square kilometer and with my own eyes left me speechless.
jimt1234 147 days ago [-]
To be clear, The Strip is nothing like living in Las Vegas. Nothing. Las Vegas, outside The Strip, is basically Phoenix, except there's video poker machines in the grocery stores.
gonzo 147 days ago [-]
… and the C-stores, and the bars (which are open 24/7).
saghm 147 days ago [-]
I've never been to Las Vegas, but I remember my dad saying that there were slot machines in a CVS he went to there once. Growing up in Massachusetts, it took me a bit to get used to pharmacies even having alcohol after moving to New York, so this always amused me.
sneak 147 days ago [-]
and all the bars and casinos allow smoking indoors to the detriment of all of their staff and patrons simply because of the gambling lobby.
Vespasian 147 days ago [-]
I loved my most recent trip to the US (it's been almost 10 years...wow) for anything but Vegas.
Something really didn't mesh with me.Too much focus on fakery and "big" I guess. (Especially all that "Roman" and "greek" flair after having just toured the real deal a few weeks earlier)
So we took advantage of the cheap accomodation and visited the stunning places around it.
tracker1 146 days ago [-]
Las Vegas is definitely something else... It's close enough that I've been in/through there several times over the years. That said, I just don't enjoy it. I used to enjoy a few good meals or a show stopping in on the way through as I like to do road trips. The customer service has sub-floored, the crowds have only grown and it's just far from even pleasant to where the show isn't worth it.
That's just my own take.
thanksgiving 148 days ago [-]
I wish we had free public transit everywhere like they do on the strip.
kagevf 147 days ago [-]
Public transit isn’t free on the strip except during New Years Eve and possibly some other special occasions.
The monorail from Mandalay Bay to Bellagio is free, but it isn’t public transit.
LorenPechtel 147 days ago [-]
Not only is it not free, but fares on the strip buses are higher than the fares everywhere else. I think this is a result of subsidies for public transit not going to the tourists.
crest 148 days ago [-]
Everything except that shriveled little thing that drove the buying decision.
geophph 147 days ago [-]
We call them gender affirming care. Or emotional support vehicles.
satiated_grue 147 days ago [-]
What if Alaska were split in half, and Texas would become the third-largest state by area?
bravetraveler 147 days ago [-]
State vehicle: pavement princess
otteromkram 147 days ago [-]
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fuzztester 148 days ago [-]
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fuzztester 148 days ago [-]
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bravetraveler 148 days ago [-]
I grew up in Appalachia and moved to Texas as an adult. Very similar experience, ride-laugh and all. This place is both amazing and ridiculous.
1659447091 147 days ago [-]
> ...and those massive gas stations...
Buc-ee's is the Trader Joe's of Texas, find all kinds of weird things that are actually good, or at least novel. Also, cleanest public restrooms you'll probably ever experience. Decent breakfast tacos too
"I'm from Texas, what country are you from?"
Keyframe 148 days ago [-]
From european drivers perspective, what surprised me the most (aside from peculiar traffic rules - some actually good) was concrete highways instead of black asphalt. I was especially careful during rain, it "looked" slippery; Later I was told it does actually have some asphalt in it.
LorenPechtel 147 days ago [-]
As someone who has lived pretty much all of my life in the desert I look with considerable caution towards high speed asphalt.
The road concrete is roughened, you have good traction even in less than ideal weather. And concrete lasts an awful lot longer under heavy traffic. Smooth concrete would be like you are worried about, but the high speed roads aren't smooth concrete.
Asphalt is a hydrocarbon product and can sweat. But worse is the oil from cars. Drip, drip, drip--since it's on a hydrocarbon base it loosely bonds with it and simply accumulates. When the rain does come along the roads will be very slippery until there has been enough rain and cars to wash them clean. Until then, hydroplane accidents galore. Be especially careful around gas stations.
anonym29 148 days ago [-]
6-year Texan who grew up in New England here. Yes, those roads do get more slippery than regular ones. Unfortunately, many Texans drive worse in light rain than most New Englanders drive in the snow... and don't even get me started on how Texans drive in the snow, lol.
rurban 147 days ago [-]
Texas highways will get very hot in summer, and with cheap asphalt it will last max. 5 years. Proper concrete will last 20 years.
Also asphalt is more slippery than concrete. It will spill out oil.
Only poor cities will do asphalt, and they are in constant reconstruction.
Maybe for late 90's, but major metro areas like ATX, DFW, Houston, and SA have grown much more progressive in the last quarter century.
Also, statistically speaking, you're less likely to be shot in a Texas LGBTQ-friendly venue than a Colorado LGBTQ-friendly venue.
swozey 144 days ago [-]
Did you seriously just explain to someone who said they lived in Texas that the cities in Texas are progressive? ... I lived there, man. I even lived in those cities. I even said I recently escaped, not a quarter century ago.
I was 8 in the "late 90s" dude. How old do you think people on HN are?
Texas fucking sucks, even if you're in Austin, Houston or Dallas. Especially post-2020.
undersuit 147 days ago [-]
KOTH was 90+ miles from Houston apocryphally and a very liberal town even by today's standards. "Hank shows homophobic behaviors, but it doesn't seem out of malice." The malice is unfortunately why I think you're being downvoted. That's definitely increased in both Texas and Colorado.
consteval 147 days ago [-]
> major metro areas like ATX, DFW, Houston, and SA have grown much more progressive in the last quarter century
While true, and while these places being by far the most population dense, they don't actually have any influence over the laws. Funny how that works. And those laws do matter.
xyst 148 days ago [-]
It’s a shame this country is so obsessed with cars. There’s so much land yet we devote it to destroying lush ecosystems (that help reduce effects of Mother Nature) and replacing it with massive highway projects that end up costing everyone more in taxes/indefinite maintenance costs.
Then the effect is 10X’d when useless suburbs are built. More car dependence. More time spent on roads. Traffic slows to a halt as suburbs fill up. Geniuses at the state transportation department believe we should just widen the roads. But continue to ignore decades of “induced demand” evidence.
jcfrei 148 days ago [-]
The US Highway building industry is in many ways a form of a state run social system. First of all the road construction and maintenance uses a huge amount of tax dollars and redistributes it to lower class construction site and road maintenance workers and some engineering bureaus. Secondly it gives everybody equal (highway) transportation access by continuously expanding capacity on existing roads and building new highways to growing towns on the countryside. Poorer people need to buy or rent housing far away on the countryside and highways therefore democratizes their access to the urban centers with lots of jobs.
In the specific case of Texas there's also a toll road system, however this only covers a fraction of the highways in the state and the tolls themselves don't account for all the incurred costs.
consp 148 days ago [-]
Poor people should not have to buy a car as it is a massive drain on finances to keep it running. There are better solutions
jcfrei 148 days ago [-]
Theoretically yes but a lot would need to change for that to happen in the US. In reality having a car and traveling lots of miles every day is the cheapest variant for most people.
xyst 148 days ago [-]
> In reality having a car and traveling lots of miles every day is the cheapest variant for most people.
Realistically, it's the _only_ way to get around the US.
delta_p_delta_x 148 days ago [-]
That's because the US is built that way. In turn because every city that's not New York has just expanded horizontally with hundreds of thousands of square kilometres of detached house-driveway-backyard-frontyard suburbia.
In most of the Old World, cities have existed for centuries—if not millennia—and were built for the human foot, not the car tyre. Hence most European and Asian city centres are dense, mostly walkable, and fairly small. From the 1800s onward as transport speeds have increased they've built dense mid-/high-rises in the suburban bits, and developed cheap, efficient, and highly-utilised bus and heavy rail public transport, both within and between cities.
Many such cities additionally have 'green belts' to prevent urban sprawl.
Actually I am misrepresenting the situation in the USA.
The US expanded with the railways, and many American cities were built along and at the end of railways.
But then in the 1950s, Americans collectively decided that public transport was useless and they bulldozed through their city centres, ripped up the trams and railways, and splatted veritable plates of highway spaghetti right through the middle of their cities (often through slums and ghettos mainly housing poorer people of African descent).
AnthonyMouse 147 days ago [-]
> But then in the 1950s, Americans collectively decided that public transport was useless and they bulldozed through their city centres, ripped up the trams and railways, and splatted veritable plates of highway spaghetti right through the middle of their cities
The causality for this was mostly the other way around. There was a lot of empty land around the cities -- unlike most of Europe or Asia -- so once cars became available people started moving there because they could get more space for less money and still commute into the city by car for work.
The real problem is that the people who did this didn't want the city encroaching on their suburban space, but that space was directly next to the city. So they zoned it for single-family homes only and then the only way to add new housing is for the city to expand horizontally. Which needs more roads and parking and reduces use of mass transit which in turn gets discontinued.
What you need isn't mass transit, it's to allow condos and mixed-use zoning in what is currently the suburbs, to reconstitute enough density that mass transit can actually work.
fiddlerwoaroof 147 days ago [-]
Houston is actually a good example of this: the city has no zoning laws and so the workplaces are relatively evenly distributed across the metropolitan area. It may not be ideal, but you don’t really appreciate this aspect of the city as a visitor.
jdkee 148 days ago [-]
Most U.S. cities were located and built due to the geography of water, whether it is on the coasts or inland on lakes and rivers. The reason why the railways ended at the coastal cities is due to oceanic shipping.
maxerickson 148 days ago [-]
People in areas with no transit don't have to drive far.
Lots of people at my office do drive 40-50 miles each way, but it's not because they can't afford the houses that are 5 miles away (in perfectly pleasant neighborhoods, near the central area that most services in the region are located in).
And then the cheaper parts of towns aren't bad either.
People living in the outskirts of huge population centers are the ones driving far for economic reasons.
arthurbrown 147 days ago [-]
Can't this line of reasoning be applied to any transport infrastructure?
legacynl 147 days ago [-]
Yes! and that's why public transport is so good. Because it's everything the comment said, but without the cost of buying, operating and maintaining a vehicle.
undersuit 147 days ago [-]
Vehicles built to handle 5-8 travellers, the majority of vehicles sold in the US, are more often than not carrying one driver and no passengers for significant numbers of trips breaks this line of reasoning.
pc86 148 days ago [-]
I'm not sure what you think the alternative is. The US is huge compared to any similarly developed country. Is the answer huge cities right next to thousands of square miles of untouched nature? That hasn't happened in any society on the planet.
It sounds like you just want everyone to live in a city and take public transit everywhere but cities are awful for your mental health[0] and most people in the US do not want to live in a major urban area. You can't have a huge geography and rural or suburban life without private vehicles.
If people want to live in rural areas, that's fine by me. They don't particularly contribute to the problems with car-centric infrastructure in the US. The main complaints are how most cities in the US are designed in ways that are hostile to anybody who doesn't have a car, such as:
- making it difficult to get around safely by bike
- zoning restrictions that force development to be clumped in certain areas
- underdeveloped public transport with infrequent stops and limited range
- parking space requirements that limit development
- food deserts where people have to drive long distances to get groceries
There are many places in the world that have solved these problems. I don't get why it's so inconceivable to solve them in the US.
bamboozled 148 days ago [-]
Japan is awesome like this, they have amazing highways and rail. Tokyo in my option is a bit too car friendly but it’s still very walkable and rideable.
m1n1 147 days ago [-]
If that system existed in America, what would it take to keep it as clean and as safe? (Edit: I visited Japan and loved the train system)
kulahan 147 days ago [-]
Japan is an extremely small island. I don’t think a lot of their experience would apply to us. China may be a better example.
nercury 147 days ago [-]
Extremely small island that stretches from New York to Atlanta..
ludsan 147 days ago [-]
Honshu is the 7th largest island in the world. It's area is a little more than 1/3 of texas.
kulahan 147 days ago [-]
The fact that it barely measures up to our second largest state would reinforce my point.
bamboozled 147 days ago [-]
LA to San Fran could be doing a lot better is what you’re saying ?
Ostrogoth 147 days ago [-]
As someone who recently bought a house (and used to live in an apartment), those were some of the reasons why I opted out of apartment life. I would prefer to live in a denser urban area if other amenities and quality of life benefits came with it, but they don’t in my city. Even if you live close to the city core, there are either extremely limited or entirely nonexistent options for groceries, fitness and recreation, coffee shops, affordable eateries, non-alcohol entertainment and art, etc in most neighborhoods. You would still have to drive most of the time anyway. Most of the denser areas closer to downtown can also be quite dangerous for pedestrians after dark. The few places that have denser housing with those amenities within (safe) walking access are exorbitantly more expensive. Meanwhile apartment and townhome developments are now springing up everywhere in my area of town, but without any amenities to go with them, leading to even more vehicle congestion on the local streets as people try to escape the neighborhood and reach the highways.
xyst 148 days ago [-]
Love how you cite a study performed in the _UK_ in _1994_ as irrefutable evidence that cities are "awful" for your mental health. Yet more recent studies in the US indicate exactly the opposite.
The US being huge has no bearing on the requirement that I have to own a car to get to work every day, or to go to the grocery store, or to take kids to school. I live in a more suburban area than I used to and having to pilot a huge deadly vehicle everywhere is vastly more stressful than just walking to handle my groceries.
Note that the study you link to there is from 1994 and only controlled for the following criteria: sex, age, social class, marital status, unemployment, chronic illness and region of residence. Those aren't the things that put folks on edge about cities in 1994 or in the preceding years. 30 years on from 1994 and now in a different world, many of us are wondering why we're locked out of some of the benefits of a bit more density.
No ones saying we abandon all beyond our city walls to nature, instead they'll be farmland or productive rural activities like we already use them for. But we don't need every city of 500k people to mean that there's a 15 mile radius circle of strip malls in every direction.
s1artibartfast 148 days ago [-]
Most Americans vote with their wallets and feet. They don't want dense apartment living and the majority run from it as soon as they can afford it.
It is usually possible to rent small apartments near work in most metro areas, but instead they prefer 3000sqft places to 600sqft and supermarkets to corner stores.
There is a huge amount that would have to change about the American dream and esthetic desires to enable car free European living.
cozzyd 148 days ago [-]
Yes, this is why San Francisco, Boston and NYC have the cheapest rents in the US.
vel0city 147 days ago [-]
Sure, there's more demand than there is supply at the moment for sense urban areas. But in the end, most Americans don't choose to live in denser areas even if it's more affordable than NYC and SF.
I do agree we should build more density, but there is also still a large amount of convincing people to actually allow it and move there.
It's not like these zoning laws just appeared on their own one day. People vote for these things. People show up to city halls and fight densification. People fight against transit, they don't want those people coming in to their nice quiet neighborhoods and the undesirables in their apartments.
onecommentman 147 days ago [-]
No, it is why 60% of Americans live in single family detached homes, not including the additional 10% who live in manufactured homes or single family attached. Not factoring in latent demand, or those who are in high-density living for reasons beyond their control, e.g. assisted living, college dorms, military, that should be excluded from the calculations.
San Francisco 2024 growth rate is minus 2.4 percent. NYC 2024 growth rate minus 2.0. Boston minus 1.0 percent. High rent is more likely the result of NYC, SF and Boston renters being on the bleeding edge of rent setting software. Lucky them.
pc86 147 days ago [-]
I would think any one of NIMBY incumbents, rent control, and (CA-specific, obv) Prop 13/19 would individually do a lot more to artificially pump up rent prices than rent setting software.
s1artibartfast 147 days ago [-]
Prop 13 drives down prices the same way mortgage interest drive down sales prices. low tax on homes purchased 30 years ago means higher taxes on new purchases.
New home buyers usually care about their monthly payment. high mortgage rates mean they can afford lower sales prices. High tax rates mean they can afford lower sales prices.
Miiko 147 days ago [-]
According to Zillow, the median rent (for all property types) is $3,300 is San Francisco, but it is $3,400 in the neighboring San Mateo county, so yes, SF is indeed cheaper ;)
s1artibartfast 147 days ago [-]
Wait until you see the rental prices for large 2000sqft single family homes within driving distance.
onecommentman 147 days ago [-]
The one thing you can count on based on decades of experience living with the anti car crowd is they are uniquely ill-equipped to change the hearts and minds of the average American. Their Modus Operandi is shrill hectoring about how the lifestyle of the average American is a “problem”, when the average American is either quite satisfied with their situation or actually aspire to the “problematic” low density lifestyle. When that argument fails, they devolve to an apocalyptic vision of social collapse unless their vision wins. Hearts and minds? Yeah, US in Afghanistan all over again…
Neither of these anti car strategies will ever gain traction with any but the youngest, most easily duped Americans, who are already stuck in high density housing for a combination of economic and career trajectory reasons. The approach America has taken for many decades with these young people is “they’ll outgrow it”. And they do, when children arrive and these young people, as their parents and grandparents before them, aspire to that “better family life” that low density housing affords.
lelandbatey 147 days ago [-]
I keep getting older and my desire to live with greater density grows stronger, not weaker. I've recently been able to buy a house, and I just wish I could have gotten one even closer to the city than I did.
This patronizing "they'll grow out of it" is a self fulfilling prophecy when suburbanism is the only option.
To give a concrete example of the apocalyptic talk you mention: We aren't going to be able to do this forever, there isn't enough land. Sure it worked for a couple dozen years while the USA built new highways and sold off it's now-close-enough-for-commuting land, but that time is running out. We can kick the can down the road, but the interest in what's borrowed will come due, though probably in a monetary collapse not a social one. After all, who doesn't want a private island all their own (if they can afford it, and it's maintenance)?
But let's say we can kick the can down the road forever, or functionally forever. Even in that world, for those of us that only want a 1500sq/ft house and a nearby corner store, can we please make that just a possibility? Like, legally? Similarly, can we get some legislative support for 3 or 4 bedroom apartments since as it stands they feel incredibly rare...
The suburbs have a lot of appeal, can we please also build other things at all, sometimes?
supertrope 147 days ago [-]
Americans complain about unaffordable housing, car prices, gas prices, and car insurance premiums. But very few connect the dots between zoning and our housing and transportation ills. If your state DOT spends 98% of their budget on car traffic and 2% on walking, biking, and non-single occupancy vehicles that's what you'll get.
oremolten 147 days ago [-]
You're not required anything. Nothing is stopping you from walking or riding a bike. You're making a choice of convenience.
You're over privileged life has made you believe you need this "deadly vehicle". Go with out? like the 5billion other people that are, or continue to wine about your luxuries and not being able to get groceries 2 minutes faster.
How about this, instead of designing your consumer luxury life around needing to go to a store or restaurant 2-3 times a day... instead maybe shape your habits around not being a mindless consumer.
wahhh it really is awful I have to drive for 30 minutes 1x a month to get groceries.
rangestransform 147 days ago [-]
Why did we build society at all if we should be always satisfied with the status quo standard of living
anonym29 148 days ago [-]
>having to pilot a huge deadly vehicle everywhere is vastly more stressful than just walking to handle my groceries.
That's a nice luxury to have. I take it you're fortunate enough to live in a very temperate area with palatable weather year-round, rather than somewhere that gets 110° F in the summer, or ice storms in the winter?
Not everyone can afford to live on the beautiful, comfortable, and exorbitantly expensive cities along the west coast.
jcranmer 148 days ago [-]
> I take it you're fortunate enough to live in a very temperate area with palatable weather year-round, rather than somewhere that gets 110° F in the summer, or ice storms in the winter?
Okay, we don't get the 110°F in the summer here (only up to the 90's), but we do get the ice storms in the winter.
I still walk to get my groceries if I can, even if it's actively snowing. I just wish they'd plow the sidewalks here, I don't like having to choose between walking in the street or trying to walk on uncompacted snow in my boots while laden with groceries.
pc86 147 days ago [-]
Every place I've ever lived has required property owners to clear and salt their sidewalks within 24 hours of the snow stopping, and any place that actually gets regular, measurable snowfall (northeast, northern midwest) is pretty good about citing those that don't.
felipellrocha 148 days ago [-]
Have people not lived in those places in the past?
rangestransform 147 days ago [-]
We have the choice of affordable, door-to-door air conditioning now, so why should we do without if we don’t have to?
anonym29 148 days ago [-]
They have, but if you mean before the introduction of the automobile, it was in an era where nobody had to commute to get groceries because a majority of the population were subsistence farmers.
p_j_w 148 days ago [-]
Do you know nothing about the history of the east coast? Do you ACTUALLY think everyone who lived there before 1900 was a subsistence farmer?
rbetts 148 days ago [-]
The US is large - but roughly 1 in 10 residents live around LA or NYC. As much as it is large, it is also non-uniform.
felipellrocha 148 days ago [-]
I love how you claim that there doesn’t exist, while at the same time mentioning a (very old) study that would imply an alternative exists so that such study can take place.
If you go to anywhere in Europe you will find plenty of places that prove the opposite.
dopidopHN 148 days ago [-]
It’s not about rural places.
It’s about how cities are centered around car.
Cities in the us are basically highway with warehouse around it.
It’s hard to navigate without a car, and public transportation are a afterthought.
p_j_w 148 days ago [-]
>I'm not sure what you think the alternative is.
We could start by making people who choose rural or suburban life pay the costs of such a life rather than foisting them on everyone else. Roads should either be toll roads or entirely paid for by gas taxes and vehicle registration costs. Gas taxes should have to include the cost of removing the pollutants from the environment.
gustavus 147 days ago [-]
Setting aside the shocking myopia of this comment (it turns out most of your food that magically appears in grocery stores comes from those useless rural yokels that use these roads)
A major driver of the interstate highway project was military in consideration because of the importance of logistics in being able to move troops around the country.
consteval 147 days ago [-]
Well now that you tell me the military industrial complex is behind it, I'm all for it!
p_j_w 147 days ago [-]
[flagged]
nayuki 147 days ago [-]
> your food that magically appears in grocery stores comes from those useless rural yokels that use these roads
That's fine. Roll those costs into the price of food. That way, the amount of road tax you pay is proportional to how much goods and services you consume.
Meanwhile, the status quo is that everyone pays into the road system regardless of how much or little they use it - even if they don't own a car.
Roads have to get paid for no matter what. The only choice we have as a society is between taxing everyone versus taxing only the users.
AnthonyMouse 147 days ago [-]
> Roads have to get paid for no matter what. The only choice we have as a society is between taxing everyone versus taxing only the users.
Exactly right, but proving the opposite of what you request.
Once roads are built they're a sunk cost. Roads have to be resurfaced as a result weather damage regardless of how many people drive on them. Road capacity that exists and isn't used is lost. The incremental cost of an additional car driving down a road, the actual wear caused by the act, is trivial. Far less than the pro rata share of building or maintaining the road, or than existing gas tax, or the cost of even the collections infrastructure for road tolls. But the use has value to the driver and plausibly to others in society (e.g. their customers/employers/friends), so we don't want to discourage it unless its value is less than the incremental cost, since the cost of building the road and most of the maintenance is a sunk cost.
Which leads to the conclusion that the sunk cost of the road should be shared by everybody, since everybody benefits from having products delivered and emergency services even if they don't have a car.
34-9t6i 148 days ago [-]
Houston is currently planning its fifth loop. They already have four, and they need a fifth, which mean converting many more square miles of marshland into pavement. Meanwhile there are hundreds of square miles of abandoned real estate in the middle of the city. It's cheaper to just buy and build new than the tear down the old building first. And they can't figure out why each hurricane season is more destructive than the last .... huh. I grew up in Houston and I hated it. I refuse to even visit family there now.
telotortium 147 days ago [-]
Houston only has three loops: I-610 and Beltway 8, with State Highway 99 under construction. The latter 2 are both toll roads. (I guess the highways around downtown form a loop, but as a former resident of the city, I never heard anyone call that a loop - I-610 was always the inner loop.) If you’re going to shit on Houston, at least get the facts right.
Also, what’s wrong with beltways? The main flaw in the interstate highway system, from an urbanist perspective, has always been the highways cutting through the historic urban core, which tend to attract traffic just passing through. Houston has those too, but not really any worse than most American cities. Beltways are really great at diverting such traffic away from the urban core. Unfortunately, as cities expand, beltways tend to become part of the urban core, so farther out beltways need to be built to retain their advantages.
arcticfox 148 days ago [-]
I recently moved near the 4th loop and - it’s hard for me to imagine anyone crying for the land beyond it. There’s just nothing there. It’s like playing SimCity on an infinite flat map. I’d much rather they put another 2-5 million people here over the next few decades than try to sprawl out from Seattle or Boston or some of the other places I’ve lived.
annexrichmond 148 days ago [-]
I see this "induced demand" critique a lot, and I am curious - if it's wrong, how is it different than adding housing to a region to make it cheaper?
jaccarmac 148 days ago [-]
You're right that it's not entirely different.
But I'll start with the simple version of the critique. Individual commuters make their decision about whether to make a trip based in part on the time that trip will take (a function of road congestion). Thus, adding road capacity will temporarily lower the cost of a trip, allowing more people to make it until congestion reaches the pre-expansion level. Housing does not have this problem because consumers make decisions about where to live much more infrequently.
As you can tell, "induced demand" is a bad if rather catchy name. To be fair to urban planners, the throughput of an expanded road does increase. However, the experience of using it stays the same or gets worse, and the cost (both $ and space) is disproportionate. Is the pro-transit argument, which I subscribe to.
Of course, the real world includes large real estate firms which are making frequent decisions on housing stock. So I agree that the build-more-housing-and-everything-will-improve crowd is wrong. But I don't think YIMBY/transit and anti-transit are the only choices. The former is a common archetype these days.
I think the US kind of gets a pass for that. You guys have so much land to cover. No one's going to be surprised that US including Alaska and Nevada and all those deserts is technically 600x more sparsely populated than Singapore or 17x more than Germany, but I bet many do if they learn it has 10x more land per population than UAE, 4.5x over Ukraine, 4x over global average, and so on.
US forces had hard time moving about in Iraq due to its lower land use and actual US is 7.7x sparse-er. There's no way American car culture could just stop being car dependent. Abundant fast cars is potentially the only way it can work.
Most of the US is undeveloped in terms of highways and suburbs.
Whats the point of having all that room if you’re going to trap yourself in a small apartment tower?
rangestransform 147 days ago [-]
There’s a critical mass of population density needed to support a vast diversity of specialty businesses. NYC, for example, has the second- or third-best examples of basically every country’s cuisine.
variant 147 days ago [-]
We prefer cars. It's fine.
specialist 147 days ago [-]
Robert Caro's book The Power Broker details how Robert Moses hacked govt post WWII, so that urban areas unwittingly financed sprawl. So much so that when NYC nearly went bankrupt, the victim was blamed.
So thoroughly was the con job that just now some groups have started to question it. Orgs like Sightline, Stronger Towns, micromobility, renewed interest in mass transit, and so forth.
bamboozled 148 days ago [-]
[flagged]
Groxx 148 days ago [-]
So...
> Q: Why are Texas interchanges so tall?
>
> Frontage roads need grade separation, adding a layer.
> Texas has lots of frontage roads.
OK, I buy that Texas has more grade-separated interchanges on average... but I'm not seeing how that turns into "Texas has more higher interchanges" which is what it feels like that question is asking. Frontage roads don't generally exist where 3+ highways intersect, so that shouldn't be relevant for high ones, it just raises many 1-high to 2-high.
Or do they, in Texas? Or is it just that Texas has one famous one and people extrapolate that to mean the whole state is absolutely smothered in interchanges, until it looks like a scene from The Fifth Element?
missingcolours 148 days ago [-]
There are frontage roads at most freeway interchanges in Texas.
Typical stack interchange elsewhere has 4 levels: freeway 1, freeway 2, freeway 1 left turns, freeway 2 left turns. Frontage roads add 5th and occasionally 6th levels.
The other thing not mentioned is the proliferation of separate express lanes, which often have dedicated flyover ramps as well.
mikepurvis 148 days ago [-]
From a quick skim of Wikipedia, it looks like the main benefit to the stack style over a conventional 2-level cloverleaf is capacity (the left-turn leaves are generally at most one lane) and speed (left turns are direct rather than 270deg, so you don't have to slow down as much when taking them).
Still, to this layman it seems like a colossal engineering cost to build all those bridges and ramps for relatively modest gain.
toast0 148 days ago [-]
Cloverleaf intersections have really poor overload behavior. They're fine in low traffic areas, but in places with high traffic, the crossing streams of traffic cause cascading backups.
Stack interchanges increase acheivable throughput because you can often build enough road to allow backups for one direction to not impinge on the other flows.
It's also easier to build effective signage so there's fewer surprise lane changes.
dylan604 148 days ago [-]
The TFA specifically covers this, so skimming wikipedia should have been totally unnecessary.
In fact, the TFA goes further than your wiki skim to add that the merging from the highway to the clover leaf requires slowing down on the highway while entering the highway from the clover requires accelerating. Both of these things are being done in the same piece of road. It does so with graphic animations. You'd probably enjoy the TFA
tofof 148 days ago [-]
This comment is misleading; the youtube video contains these animations but "the fucking article" does not. Please, if you're going to imply criticism that the article went unread, don't mention things that are instead in a video. The url attached to this post is to an article (a transcript), not to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-16RFXr44fY which contains the content you're talking about.
Instead, please consider helpfully linking to the animations[1] you're talking about, so that others can find them without having to waste time listening to content they already read.
The "T" in TFA stands for "The" so this is sort of like saying "ATM machine."
zrobotics 147 days ago [-]
Could you refrain from making low-value posts like this? This is not any better than pointing out a grammar/spelling mistake, and just degrades the quality of the conversation. Yes, you are technically correct, but teh original meaning was clear. Your original comment isn't any more contributive to the discussion than pointing out the typo in my previous sentence. I'm not trying to start an argument, but asking you to re-consider this type of posting in the future since it is both off topic and a mild form of trolling (grammar-nazi adjacent).
meinersbur 147 days ago [-]
By you own standard, this is a low-value post as well.
dylan604 148 days ago [-]
do you really think anyone actually cares that my comment started with "The TFA" instead of just TFA? Your comment adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.
pc86 148 days ago [-]
Do you really think the best way to react to a perfectly civil comment attempting to tell you that you're saying something wrong is to get defensive and pejorative?
dylan604 148 days ago [-]
Yes. Your comment adds nothing to the conversation. It's like posting on the incorrect use of your/you're there/their/they're. Mistakes in grammar happen all the time. When they happen, it is easy for the reader to see the mistake and move on. Corrective comments mean nothing in the end
s1artibartfast 148 days ago [-]
Corrective comments mean nothing specifically in the case where the author has no interest in correcting their behavior in the future. I realize may fall into this case, but it isn't universal. Some people seek to improve their grammar and avoid mistakes. Pointing them out doesn't have to be viewed as an attack.
Alternative responses are as simple as "thanks" or "you are correct, of course"
DidYaWipe 148 days ago [-]
They mean something to readers, though, regardless of whether the author is amenable to taking in the information or not. People learn by reading, so we all benefit by giving them correctly written material to learn from.
s1artibartfast 148 days ago [-]
Agreed, that too
actionfromafar 148 days ago [-]
People should just fucking read the fucking TFA.
anonym29 148 days ago [-]
RTFTFA?
DidYaWipe 147 days ago [-]
I love how someone downvoted that. Up with illiteracy!
DidYaWipe 148 days ago [-]
Wrong. It is NOT easy for some people to see the mistake. People learn to read, write, and even speak by READING. And where do people do most of their reading these days? Online.
So it is to everyone's benefit to correct spelling and grammar errors. People learning English, kids, whoever... they all benefit from seeing correct language. Lashing out against it is infantile and counterproductive.
mikepurvis 148 days ago [-]
To be honest I did read the first few paragraphs and then went looking for info about the Dallas High Five as I don't think I've even been on anything taller than ~three levels— the major highway near me is the 401 and I believe it is mostly cloverleafs other than the junction with 410 and 403, so I'm much more used to that arrangement.
dylan604 148 days ago [-]
You must have skimmed over the "graphic animations" too which implies the source video from which the text was just transcribed
seijiotsu 148 days ago [-]
Don’t forget ease and safety. With a stack interchange (and many other types), you often have plenty of time beforehand to position yourself into the correct lane. But if you are going to go through a cloverleaf you will often need to make a stressful weave into the leaf, and then back again into the highway.
Sohcahtoa82 148 days ago [-]
The gain isn't "modest".
At a cloverleaf, the weaving between people entering a highway from one leaf and people trying to get onto the next leaf is an utter destroyer of traffic flow, especially when you add in some human behavior, where some people are assholes and won't let people merge in front of them, even when they're trying to merge to the other lane themselves.
jcranmer 148 days ago [-]
The biggest benefit to stack over a cloverleaf is that cloverleaves have this issue that the same lane needs to be used for offgoing traffic to decelerate and oncoming traffic to accelerate. There's a partial mitigation for cloverleaves, which is to lane segregate the ramps so that there's less pressure for traffic to have to accelerate to highway speed immediately, but stacks eliminate the issue entirely.
s1artibartfast 148 days ago [-]
Driving around the bay area, it seems that 90% of traffic is caused by shared onramp-offramp lanes, or insufficient distance between them.
Many highways otherwise would have much more capacity. The telltale sign of exit issues is highways that bog down to 15mph for a couple miles, only to open up to 60+ with the same number of lanes.
Total shame and often unnecessary. I wonder how many man-years are wasted as a result.
bobthepanda 148 days ago [-]
the size is also a limiting factor for the cloverleaf; a 270 degree turn at reasonable speeds requires a lot of land cause the curve radius is so huge and you're going three quarters of the way around.
there is also the weave required between exiting off a loop and other traffic entering onto it. you could theoretically get rid of it by bridging one loop over the other but then you may as well just bridge more of it without the 270 degree turn at that point.
and there are also compromise designs like the cloverstack where only two opposite sides are the 270 loops to avoid the weaving problem.
148 days ago [-]
mrguyorama 148 days ago [-]
>Still, to this layman it seems like a colossal engineering cost to build all those bridges and ramps for relatively modest gain.
IMO, maybe Texas does this because Texas gets a lot more taxes than they talk about (through high property taxes), and don't really want to spend them on anything else (like socialism!), so instead they build 10 lane highway systems for the billion cars and trucks every american should own.
vel0city 148 days ago [-]
One-third of the Texas DPS highway budget comes from federal sources.
Another third comes from revenues from oil & gas.
About a quarter comes from state gasoline sales tax and registration taxes.
So a little more than 90% of the funding for freeway projects in Texas comes from non-property tax sources.
But even then, a lot of the recent major highway projects in Texas had some kind of toll component to them whether that just directly be toll roads or tolled "express lane" projects which often have parts of those toll revenue backed bonds going to fund things like highway interchanges and on/off ramps for the freeways.
The vast majority of the property taxes I pay go towards the schools, the public parks, the fire/police/public service, libraries, and local roads. City+County taxes are ~0.710%, just the ISD and community college is ~1.16%. A massive chunk of those city/county taxes are roads and public service people, with a bit of parks department and other things like that thrown in.
The state gets its cut mostly by sales taxes though. 6.25% is the state sales tax, with things like groceries exempted. Cities can levy up to 2% additional, for a max rate of 8.25%. Of that 2% my city levies, half of that goes to public transit.
s1artibartfast 148 days ago [-]
How utterly sane.
lukevp 148 days ago [-]
I think this is spot on, but also keep in mind that Texas is a state built for cars, not people. There are very few places where you can safely live and get around to the things you need, and the state is so big that it’s all very high speed highways. I was just there driving from DFW to Austin and it’s 75mph, and then drove to El Paso where it’s 80 mph most of the way. The scale of highways in TX is unmatched anywhere else I’ve been. It’s pretty incredible and sad to be there. There’s not much care for aesthetics or design of roadways. So there’s some cost that’s gotta be paid because everyone needs a car just to exist in such a big sprawly place. Very catch 22, but no going back at this point. DFW takes over 3 hours to drive acrosss, Houston 2 hours. The metro areas are massive there.
actionfromafar 148 days ago [-]
Socialism, but for cars.
maxerickson 148 days ago [-]
I expect it's more because it's growth has been in modern times. Some planner liked frontage roads and set the fetish.
In areas where large highways were built over small highways, it isn't so easy to add an additional road.
It's an interchange that's tucked into the normal street grid of Chicago, taking up about 4 city blocks total, and requiring just 3 levels of bridges to get all the traffic to their destinations. The trick is that it relies on a windmill interchange rather than a stack (so the left turns aren't crossing each other in the center), and the Congress Parkway-into-Eisenhower Expressway goes from elevated highway to sunken highway over the course of the interchange. There's even a subway line in the middle of the interchange!
I think the better explanation is that the size of highway interchanges in Texas aren't meaningfully constrained, so there's little pressure to find ways to squeeze in more compact interchanges. Furthermore, I think Texas is motivated to make its interchanges high-speed--the highways look designed for a 65/70 mph speed limit, even near the city core, whereas the Kennedy Expressway near the Circle interchange drops down to 45 mph partially to deal with the confusion of the road (there are exits 51B-J on I-90 in this stretch, yes, that many exits in a single mile of road).
mrkstu 148 days ago [-]
That is correct. All the (recent) freeways I experienced in TX were designed to go ~75 mph as a normal speed, even interchanges/overpasses, except the actual turn. Even then the turns on the cloverleaves were capable of a much higher speed than other places.
hnburnsy 147 days ago [-]
Does HOV lanes add a level? Saw these in Arizona and always wondered how much expense the separate HOV flyovers added to the interchange cost.
jtriangle 147 days ago [-]
Understand that, costs aren't linear for these sorts of things. Once you have the concrete plant, and are renting cranes, deploying a ton of falsework, etc, adding another level or two isn't as insane as it sounds.
The big thing is space required, and how much structure you actually need. Texas gets hurricanes, which are a big deal, but not nearly as big of a deal as earthquakes out in california, so, building tall things out of concrete is much more viable than most places.
The only real issue in some parts of Texas is that the water table is really close to the surface, so, if you want to build tall, you need significant amounts of footing work so it doesn't sink.
nonameiguess 148 days ago [-]
The article kind of addresses this. Texas really does have more frontage roads than other US states. In the specific example cited in the article's headline photo, both the US 75 and I-635 have frontage roads that cross each other. They stay at ground level whereas the highways elevate. Part of the reason this specific interchange has so many levels, though, which is not addressed for some reason, is that both highways have high-occupancy express lanes that are separated from other traffic and have separate interchanges with the other highway as well as separate on-ramps and off-ramps to the frontage roads. This one is particularly bad because it's where the express lane for the US 75 starts and stops. Normally, the express lanes don't have their own dedicated exits and you have to first exit to the normal highway, but US 75 has an express lane north of I-635 but not south, so there are separate entrances and exits for it here.
Thankfully, I've worked from home for years now, but back in the day, this used to feature heavily in my daily commute. My wife and I worked at the same place, so typically used the US 75 express lane where it existed, and it was a bitch. To go south, you have to get off the highway onto the frontage road and then back onto the highway.
Zircom 148 days ago [-]
The 75 lane your talking about is actually an HOV lane, not an express one. And I appreciate that it exits off the highway for exactly one reason and it's that it makes it so incredibly easy for the cops to setup their checkpoints to catch single people using the HOV lane without screwing over the rest of the traffic on the highway. Love to see it.
101011 148 days ago [-]
Completely random tidbit of information, in Houston (and only Houston) we call them 'feeder roads.'
abathur 148 days ago [-]
Ha.
My partner (who moved to Houston around middle school age) and her mom both call it the feeder, but I always assumed it was a midwest thing since mom's side of the family is all from Michigan.
Frontage roads don't generally exist where 3+ highways intersect… Or do they, in Texas?
I've lived in several states where frontage roads are common (under various names), and Texas was the place where they were most plentiful.
Older interchanges tended to run the frontage roads below grade to make them cheaper. But more recent ones tend to keep everything above grade due to flooding.
Or is it just that Texas has one famous one and people extrapolate that to mean the whole state is absolutely smothered in interchanges
Texas has a crazy number of highway interchanges. This is a partial selection of highway interchanges with frontage roads just in Houston. There are probably a hundred more across the state:
Maybe it's just me but I expected these links to open in the recently established apple maps web page. However, on an Android phone, Google Maps opens.
itishappy 148 days ago [-]
Not just you, I expected the same, and was just as surprised to find it opens Google Maps in Chrome as well.
mouselett 148 days ago [-]
Same here, it opens the Maps app on my MacBook.
jcranmer 148 days ago [-]
On Firefox on desktop, it just opens Google Maps webpage.
fuzzfactor 147 days ago [-]
Here's the street view of one of the tall ramps coming in on the Westpark Tollway onto the SW Freeway:
Up on the ramp you're coming from the tollway that is, you can see quite a lot from up there.
But on the street view the Google car is heading SW at grade on the 2-lane frontage road, the main freeway lanes are to the right and become elevated, and the overhead ramp had to fly over everything that was already there.
Notice how the frontage roads give a street address and access to properties facing the "limited access" highway.
stetrain 148 days ago [-]
The video shows multiple 5-level interchanges in Texas where two highways intersect along with their frontage roads, turning what would otherwise be a 4-stack into a 5-stack or 6-stack interchange.
legacynl 147 days ago [-]
I don't think there are many 3+ highway interchanges. These interchanges are designed to go in places where highways intersect. And you wouldn't design highways so that more than 2 highways intersect in a single point. If you need to connect 3 highways in a certain location, you can just pull back one of the connections and make 2 separate interchanges instead of one massive one.
Apparently no other country makes local stores directly accessible from the highway so 5 layer interchanges just don't exist anywhere else. This is why Texas interchanges are the highest, because they're the only interchanges in the world with 5 layers.
tines 148 days ago [-]
I heard somewhere that the reason is to provide trucks the ability to shed speed to make these sharp turns, and then give them back their speed when coming back down so they don’t have to brake hard or spend a lot of gas to do it.
Basically lets trucks use gravity to store their energy when making sharp turns and then get it back for nearly free.
tempoponet 148 days ago [-]
Another couple aspects of the high-5 not mentioned in the video:
-it doesn't have any lane merges, you can change from one highway to another without merging, your bridge just becomes a new lane on the next road
-these bridges are very long leading up to the turn, so it displaces a lot of traffic and shifts a lot of the lane changing upstream.
lagniappe 148 days ago [-]
Now THAT is some cool engineering I can get behind.
0cf8612b2e1e 148 days ago [-]
That sounds like tens of millions in extra infrastructure costs so as to save trucks a tiny amount of gas.
It is Texas, so anything is possible.
TeMPOraL 148 days ago [-]
Tens of millions in extra infrastructure costs to save a lot of trucks tiny amount of gas per ride, over many rides per year, over decades? That's literally what infrastructure is meant for.
148 days ago [-]
t-3 148 days ago [-]
Infrastructure maintenance is far cheaper in areas without regular freeze/thaw cycles (like most of Texas). I wouldn't be surprised if almost all road spending in southern states went straight to highways and ignored local roads though, as there are a ton of dirt roads unless you are in a city or on the highway.
dylan604 148 days ago [-]
I've never heard of the proposed gravity assist theory in any discussion of these interchanges. Does it happen? Sure. Is it one of the reasons behind the design or just something that happens to also be true is the actual question. Pontificating on the interwebs is fun
> At service interchanges it is desirable to design the interchanges with the crossroad above the freeway due to:
> - The crossroad above the freeway results in longer sight distances to the exit ramp and gore area.
> - The crossroad above the freeway allows gravity to assist the operation of both accelerating vehicles (the on-ramp has a down-grade) and decelerating vehicles (the off-ramp has an up-grade). In addition, the resulting grades generally provide longer sight distances.
But that's the main thing I can find right now.
jnwatson 148 days ago [-]
Energy savings isn't the point though. The point is so that large trucks won't slow down traffic having lost a bunch of energy from braking to get on a cloverleaf.
sroussey 148 days ago [-]
It’s Texas so you would assume they want people to waste gas.
Scoundreller 148 days ago [-]
I thought they wanted to sell it to other states
Never understood when major exporters of $thing would also specifically heavily subsidize $thing
TeMPOraL 148 days ago [-]
Organic advertising? As in, showing prospective importers how cool it is to have abundance of $thing.
jessriedel 148 days ago [-]
Does anyone have a link to something that supports this theory?
msisk6 148 days ago [-]
Those steep ramps and banked curves sure are fun when an ice storm comes along about once every five years.
DidYaWipe 148 days ago [-]
"the worst symbol of our car-obsessed culture"
Nothing against the article, which covers an interesting topic. But this refrain gets tiresome, the railing against our "car obsession."
We have a big-ass country. We like to move about it. Many of us don't want or need to live on top of each other. That is all.
macNchz 148 days ago [-]
My main complaint is that the people who like suburban density went ahead and made zoning codes to basically prevent building anything but sprawl, so now the few remaining places that don't require a car are rare and super expensive.
I'm even a car guy—I own a stick shift BMW—I just don't have much interest in getting into it to do literally any activity or errand other than walking around the neighborhood.
kulahan 147 days ago [-]
I think this is strongly overestimating the ratio of Americans who would be willing to walk to work, but that’s pure conjecture
macNchz 147 days ago [-]
Based on the price of houses in walkable/transit accessible parts of older American cities, there’s quite clearly a market for it. Ultimately, many Americans have basically no reference point for what it would be like to not depend on a car—it’s just what they’ve always known—so I’m sure you’re correct in that most would say they weren’t interested in living that way, but that’s not much of a reason to make rules against it.
DidYaWipe 147 days ago [-]
That isn't the reason. The reason is that people who don't want to live that way have specifically chosen to live in an area developed in a different way. Why should that be destroyed or vilified?
I see the appeal of both kinds of lifestyle. Some of my best friends live in nice Chicago neighborhoods where they don't need cars. They are not rich or even significantly "well-off" by most standards, and their homes did not and do not cost as much as a house in a suburban area.
The "rules" prevent profiteers from destroying the standard of living for people who moved AWAY from density. Why should such people be herded around the country, hounded out of their homes for someone else's (increasingly a corporation's) profit? That's akin to black people being herded out of their neighborhoods for the construction of a highway.
tptacek 147 days ago [-]
The rules you're talking about were uniformly created as a way to replace de jure racial segregation, which was outlawed surprisingly early in the 20th century, with de facto racial segregation. People supply post-hoc rationalizations for density restrictions, and some of them might even be valid, especially as you get further away from urban cores, but just to be clear: the Chesterton analysis here says these fences were erected by morons; they do not inherit a presumption of reasonableness.
My confidence about this take is pretty high throughout the continental United States, but in Chicago it is something like 100%, since this is a local policy issue I work on here.
DidYaWipe 146 days ago [-]
The blanket rejection of zoning, based on century-old racist transgressions, is pointless and tired. I lived in high-density areas my entire adult life until four years ago, when I finally bought a house that is a considerable distance away from those areas. I didn't do so for racist reasons. I did so because I required more space for my professional and personal pursuits. So I really don't give a shit about why the neighborhood was built originally, or feel the least bit guilty about opposing attempts to "Manhattanize" it.
The defense of zoning is not "post hoc," since we're talking about today and in the future. The "racism" attack on it is ad hominem.
I'm not against development, or density in areas that are designated for it. I'm against the vilification of entire neighborhoods under a false narrative that veils a craven profit motive, in combination with an entitled gimme-gimme-gimme delusion that cheap housing is going to rain down on people who could but don't work for it... if only we wipe out those horrible houses inhabited by rich racists.
tptacek 146 days ago [-]
Almost nobody is buying exclusively-zoned property for racist reasons. But the availability of those properties under those terms is an intended consequence of racist decisions, and so it is fair to re-evaluate whether it's reasonable for those terms to be enforced by the state's monopoly on violence. I say that in most exclusively-zoned areas in or near urban cores, the clear answer to that question is "no": most of what's single-family zoned today should be upzoned to fourplexes. That argument is easy to make on the merits: there's a real (and rippling) cost to maintaining single-family zones near cities, and the benefits accrue to a fortunate few.
I say this as someone who owns an extremely and multivalently single-family property, the only property I own, and is working actively and primarily on upzoning that specific area. I have neighbors that would say what you're saying: you bought into wherever you live based on the promise that the state would commit arms to preventing any of your neighbors from admitting too many new residents. My response, when we succeed: "we are altering the deal."
146 days ago [-]
146 days ago [-]
DidYaWipe 147 days ago [-]
"The people who like suburban density went ahead and made zoning codes to basically prevent building anything but sprawl"
What, exactly, qualifies as "sprawl" to you? Houses with yards? How do you propose we build those to make them "non-sprawly?" Most of your statement is true, though: "People who like suburban density went ahead and made zoning codes to basically prevent building anything but" that density. So?
Those codes exist in SOME areas. They give people a choice of what kind of area they live in. Yes, yes, they were all racist and evil back in the day. Today they serve a valid and non-nefarious purpose: giving people a choice.
"the few remaining places that don't require a car are rare and super expensive." Do you have specifics on that? Are you saying there are no small towns to live in? That condos and apartments in the downtowns and city centers and town centers and boroughs of United States cities are more expensive than houses?
Take L.A. for instance. It has become very popular to piss and moan about "single-family homes" and to pass craven developer handouts in the guise of sham "housing reform." Meanwhile, dead or dying malls sit with boarded-up anchor tenants (there's an abandoned Macy's a few miles from me) and vast empty parking lots growing weeds.
Also, downtown L.A. is not "full." Nor are other high-density areas across the county, if you look at vacancy numbers. And then there are the tracts of disused, formerly commercial or light-industrial parcels all over the city and county. And yet already-residential areas are targeted for destruction.
And I do mean destruction. In a drought- and heat-plagued area, there is no excuse to promote the wipeout of every last tree and the paving-over of every last yard for the construction of 10 units where a single house stood. Yes, recent state legislation allowed just that, WITH NO REVIEW REQUIRED OR POSSIBLE. A developer's dream.
Meanwhile, vast tracts that have already suffered these effects of "density," the aforementioned malls and parkingn lots, sit empty.
And on top of all this, nothing is being done about the corporate buy-ups of entire neighborhoods. This is even worse than the "shortage" itself, because it takes what housing does exist off the market PERMANENTLY. Corporations don't typically die and leave their homes to their kids. But people do, and corporations are scooping up those houses as fast as they can, exacerbating a home-ownership crisis that deprives Americans of their best way to build wealth.
macNchz 147 days ago [-]
American sprawl at its core, I think, is driven by single family residential-only zoning with parking minimums. In combination these rules force everything to spread out.
Single family homes can exist in non-sprawling configurations (e.g. old streetcar suburbs), but in combination with the other rules you wind up with businesses that are required to be far away from homes, to have large parking lots, and therefore be mostly hostile to anyone arriving outside of a car.
I look at the nice rural town I grew up in and the city brownstone neighborhood I live in now, and see two places with lots of real estate demand that could not, in much of America, be built today. The very nature of why these places are appealing comes from the fact they were built before these zoning codes. The businesses and schools are in walking distance of houses and have far too little parking.
I don’t see why we can’t relax some of the rules in some places and let people have a choice.
DidYaWipe 146 days ago [-]
The purpose of many parking minimums is to protect the type of neighborhood you report living in. I lived in a pleasant neighborhood on Chicago's north side (Lakeview), which was a mix of SFH away from main thoroughfares and apartment buildings where they made sense. A real demonstration of what's possible, and (I think) what you're championing. I do believe it's possible. But it does require specificity and planning, instead of a blind, statewide trouncing of local laws (which CA is attempting).
My neighborhood was an example: A defunct theater behind our multi-unit house was sold to a developer, who built a massive residental building there. Our alderman had promised that new residential developments would be required to include parking with the sale of a unit. That was a lie.
As a result, many of the new residents decided that instead of buying a parking space in their building (where they WERE available), they'd just park on our streets... where we HAD to park because we had no other option. So now our standard of living took a huge hit, because we could no longer come home from work or the grocery store or other trips, and park and go into our homes. We had to circle the neighborhood in ever-larger radii for hours per week looking for parking. Real fun at 1 a.m... in the winter.
tptacek 146 days ago [-]
In Chicago at least, parking minimums were generally enacted as a package of policies to keep Black and Latino families out of neighborhoods. The Supreme Court struck down explicit racial zoning in 1917, which drove the creation of single-family zoning. Properties in Chicago were further "protected" by racial covenants, contractually preventing them from being sold to Black families. Those covenants were struck down in 1947. Immediately thereafter, Harland Bartholomew and his acolytes sold municipalities in Chicagoland (and around the country) on a package of parking minimums, setback requirements, and minimum lot sizes, all designed to address the prevailing concern at the time: that large single-family houses would be covertly converted into two-flats and rented to Black families.
DidYaWipe 146 days ago [-]
Yes, by now we all know that every zoning decision 80 years ago was racist and evil. I'm talking about today.
tptacek 146 days ago [-]
Not 80 years ago. Into the 1980s and 90s. I can give specific examples.
A thing to keep in mind: sweeping zoning changes don't happen that often! Once every 20 years --- not exactly, but roughly --- is about right. And over the last "80 years", they've tended to ratchet. Most major metros have never had a period of pronounced housing deregulation (like other industries did in the 1970s and 1990s), so insane decisions made in the late 1940s remain in effect today, but get retconned as if the quality of live protections they promise were part of the original deal, and not a knock-on effect of a system of residential apartheid.
There is no question that restrictive zoning (and its constructive equivalents, like setback requirements) satisfy real, valid preferences of some existing homeowners. That's not the debate. The debate is whether states and localities owe those homeowners the satisfaction of those preferences, and at what cost. The existing residents advocating for density are essentially free-riding. I don't have to blame them for doing that to see that it's not something to valorize.
legacynl 147 days ago [-]
You might be tired of it, but it doesn't come from a place of 'wanting to bash car culture' but rather from a pragmatic look at the real outcomes from the current US transportation philosophy.
I don't know if you've noticed but there are some actual real problems that the US is running into.
Building stuff is cheap relative to having to maintain it over its lifetime and then eventually replacing it. The more you build the more it costs to maintain it all.
That means that from purely an economical perspective there is an optimum where you provide the most transportation for the least amount of money. The US method of building more and more is slowly driving up the cost side of the equation and delivering less and less benefits. That's not hippy-liberal bullshit, but that is just a fact.
Just imagine that instead of adding extra lanes, they would build a good train connection between your cities. You could still drive as much as you want but there would be a lot less people on the road.
mcbutterbunz 148 days ago [-]
I'd just love some zoning changes that would allow light commercial in the middle of some neighborhoods so I don't have to drive miles to get a cup of coffee. Could be as simple as adding more pathways between neighborhoods so I don't have to ride my bike on a busy street and almost get hit by someone on their phone.
Its not that we're obsessed with cars, its that cars are the only option for reasonable, safe transportation right now.
heartbreak 147 days ago [-]
> I'd just love some zoning changes that would allow light commercial in the middle of some neighborhoods
This describes reality in Houston, and I do not get the impression that you’d like Houston at all.
brikym 148 days ago [-]
The problem is the planning is the same everywhere. People who like walkable cities don't have a choice but to buy a car. It would be nice to have some areas where residential and non-industrial businesses are more mixed to lessen the amount of driving.
psunavy03 148 days ago [-]
There is also a subset of people who will go out of their way to dunk on Texas. I'm not Texan myself and feel the place has its pluses and its minuses (some of them huge ones on both sides of the ledger). But sometimes I'm like "come on, really, that's a cheap shot."
delta_p_delta_x 148 days ago [-]
> We have a big-ass country. We like to move about it. Many of us don't want or need to live on top of each other. That is all.
Japan is about the size of the entire Eastern Seaboard. Japan has safe, fast, comfortable and competitively-priced high-speed rail through highly mountainous, earthquake-prone terrain.
What's the USA's excuse? No one is asking for a 4500 km-long railway from Los Angeles to New York. But a 1500 km-long one from Atlanta to Boston? Nope, can't do.
Forget that, not even a 700 km-long one between Washington DC, New York, and Boston (where many people arguably 'live on top of each other' already).
The US has no political will to up its public transport game, and your comment epitomises it.
nkrisc 148 days ago [-]
Huh? You can take a train from New York to Washington. It’s not high speed rail but it’s not even a day trip. You could go there and back in one day and still get stuff done at the other end. It’d be a bit of a long day but nothing outrageous.
In fact, the Eastern seaboard is one of the few places in the US where rail travel is a valid option much of the time.
rangestransform 147 days ago [-]
Acela from NYC to Washington is a piss-poor excuse of """""""high speed rail""""""", certainly rock bottom dogshit tier travel times when you compare it to other city pairs with similar GDPs and similar distances
vel0city 147 days ago [-]
It's like you didn't even bother taking a glance before posting so many falsehoods.
> not even a 700 km-long one between Washington DC, New York, and Boston (where many people arguably 'live on top of each other' already).
> Convenient trips from the Big Apple to the Big Easy. With service from New York City to New Orleans, the Crescent gives travelers a unique window to the beauty and heritage of the American South. You can tour Monticello or enjoy a wine tasting in the charming Virginia college town of Charlottesville. Or enjoy a stroll through the vibrant shopping and dining scene of Underground Atlanta. As you travel further south, you'll reach New Orleans, where you never run out of things to do. From jazz clubs to Cajun restaurants to Mississippi riverboat rides, the city was simply built to entertain.
So you'll have to change trains in NY to get to Boston, but one can definitely go from Atlanta to Boston by train.
In the end though, practically nobody would take a train from Atlanta to Boston. Even if you made it 200mph HSR, a direct flight would still be faster. And until both ends of that journey really make the city more walkable you're probably going to want to rent a car at your destination anyways so being at an airport at the edge of town versus the train station closer to downtown it doesn't make enough impact for most people.
Don't gete wrong I'm generally pro-train for good city pairs, but chances are I'd never take a train from say Dallas to Phoenix or Denver or Chicago. Flying will just practically always be faster. I'd take one to Houston or Austin or San Antonio though.
guywithahat 147 days ago [-]
It’s not even that bad. If you go to Houston, there are plenty of parts which are so walking/transit focused you don’t need a car.
I’d argue the real reason people have cars is because if rent for a nice 1-bed only costs 700-1500 it doesn’t make sense to not also own a car. When people talk about a city that’s not “car-obsessed”, they’re usually referring to some place where even the wealthy can barely afford a car.
h_tbob 148 days ago [-]
As somebody who lived in Dallas and drove on the high five with some frequency, I had actually a lot of questions about the design of it. If somebody who understands this could explain I’d be happy.
For one, a lot of the overpasses had two lanes. But then they merged down to one right before you got on the highway…
What’s the point in having two lanes on the overpass that merge just before you get onto the highway? There was always slow traffic because of this.
If it was me, I would always make it so that you lose equal number of lanes To the outgoing overpasses as you will get in incoming overpasses to prevent inefficient lane changes. So if you have six lanes, you get 4 branch off, 2 for each direction on the other highway and keep 2. Then you get the four back from the intersection. No lane change.
But the way they have it, there’s so much merging it , which is harder to drive, and I’m not sure it’s more efficient.
Any thoughts?
Neywiny 148 days ago [-]
There's a cities skylines YouTuber who agrees with you. He calls it lane math. "2 come off, 2 go on,..." I'm sure there's some reason the engineers do it irl, but it is funny that going with your approach does fix things in game.
cornstalks 148 days ago [-]
I have no answer, but this got me thinking: is the overpass's road a similar physical width as the highway?
I've been on some bridges that have two lanes with a very narrow shoulder that then then merge into a single lane (with wider shoulders) at the end of the bridge, with the asphalt width not changing too much. I've always assumed that was so traffic could continue flowing on the bridge should one lane become blocked for some reason. Off the bridge a car can pull off the road if there's a problem to let traffic continue passing. You can't really do that so much on a bridge.
But I'm not a traffic/road engineer so that's just speculation on my part.
jader201 148 days ago [-]
My guess is the two lanes merging into one are only getting one lane. That is, only one lane is added after the merge, and both overpass lanes are merging into the one new lane.
But if there are indeed being two lanes added due to the merge, agree that doesn’t make much sense.
If the former, also agree that they should’ve added two lanes instead of one. But that decision could’ve come down to physical limitations, cost, or something else.
jcalvinowens 147 days ago [-]
I completely agree. The ramp from 75 south to 635 west squeezed two lanes into one before it merged with 635, and it was always an enormous bottleneck when there was any traffic at all. But the last time I drove on that ramp was 5-6 years ago, maybe it's better now.
Clamchop 147 days ago [-]
I don't have experience with Texas but there are plenty of interchanges as you describe in California. Sometimes you even see momentarily more lanes just before and after an at-grade intersection.
While more permanent lanes seems more desirable, for lack of space or money or whatever, this compromise at least increases the capacity of the ramp to absorb the queue before it starts to back up into through traffic.
Of course, in practice the capacity is often not enough.
ajkjk 148 days ago [-]
I wonder if it's more about having room for emergency vehicles or for people to pull over if there's an accident without totally stopping traffic.
tedunangst 148 days ago [-]
Depends on setup, but if the alternative is to merge before splitting off, that can slow down the main highway. Get the two lanes separated first, then merge.
Around here, two lanes split, then they split into two north and two south, and then they merge again before rejoining the cross highway.
s1artibartfast 148 days ago [-]
I haven't seen the road in question, but I wonder if it has to do with expected travel speed. Two lanes at low speed converting to one at higher speed. Of course following distance impacts this, but isn't actually 1:1 with speed
gangstead 147 days ago [-]
I always figured it was so that the bridge acts as a storage buffer for backed up traffic so you don't get the ramp to 635 eastbound so backed up that there is stopped traffic on 75 southbound.
I mean you still end up with that at rush hour but I think that's what they are trying to do. There is no number or lanes they could add that would prevent it from being a parking lot twice a day.
Animats 148 days ago [-]
Frontage roads force a design decision. Texas likes to run the frontage roads through the interchange ramps. California generally displaces the freeway about 200m from major surface roads to avoid running the surface street through the ramps. CA-92 at US-101 does that.
When too many layers are needed, CALTRANS often goes for a tunnel underneath. See CA-92 at I-280, and SF's 19th Avenue at I-280.
At US-101 and I-280 in San Francisco, a frontage road does go through the ramps.
The interchange was spread out horizontally to avoid piling up all the levels.
gullywhumper 148 days ago [-]
I lived in Dallas for a couple years, and while driving the Hive Five interchange (mentioned in the article) always seemed a little crazy, what really blew my mind was that a specific interchange could warrant its own Wikipedia page. For some reason that more than anything else really underscored its scale.
> 37 bridges and more than 700 columns are crammed into this one spot to keep the roughly half a million vehicles flowing in every direction each day
Truly pitiful numbers for a project of this scale lol.
kuschku 148 days ago [-]
Assuming the 500k people all commute between 6am-9am and 3pm-8pm, that means this interchange moves 160k people per hour.
That's 1½-2½ commuter rail lines or about 3-4 subway lines.
Such interchanges are truly a monument to stupidity.
WheatMillington 148 days ago [-]
>That's 1½-2½ commuter rail lines or about 3-4 subway lines.
Assuming every single commuter is coming from and going to the same place, sure.
oblio 148 days ago [-]
During rush hour most people are going from their homes to places of employment, which are generally highly concentrated.
The "homes" part is distributed, true, but guess what, once you have a good rail network, it provides decent coverage for that (which you can complement via walkability/bikeability/scooterability :-p, which makes for more liveable environments). And "train commuter rage" is much less frequent than "road rage" plus a lot more people die or get maimed driving a car/getting hit by a car than they do because of trains.
bsder 148 days ago [-]
> places of employment, which are generally highly concentrated.
This is not true and is one of the problems with getting mass transit to work in the US.
Most of the employment in the US is now smeared across the city. I'll give Austin as an example.
Austin employment has spaced out clumps. Downtown. The UT campus. The Domain (old IBM/NI area). The Arboretum. Oak Hill. The "new" airport.
Austin housing has similar clumps, generally dictated by how much you earn. You're probably further out than you would like since the real estate in the center is ridiculous. So, Leander, Hutto, Garfield, or Dripping Springs.
Now, plot the flows on a map. Note the massive pileup in the center as people attempt to change sectors across the city. Most modern cities are like this. There are not two or three obvious points that would get a big chunk of the traffic.
I chose Austin, but San Diego, Pittsburgh, Nashville, etc. all look similar.
And, the news is worse than that. The "white collar" jobs that could be concentrated have also been the most displaced by surburban office parks or by WFH. The types of jobs that most people are employed in (service and warehousing--Walmart/Amazon/FedEx/UPS/etc.) are generally specifically positioned where real estate is cheaper which is almost by definition off of any mass transit connector.
kube-system 148 days ago [-]
> During rush hour most people are going from their homes to places of employment, which are generally highly concentrated.
That used to be true in the US. But over the past 50 years, the dominance of the automobile combined with traffic patterns (and related real estate trends) have incentivized the opposite to happen. Suburban commercial development facilitates easier parking, and quicker commutes over secondary highways rather than the traditional congested main arterials into city centers. Many cities in the US already have or are starting to "doughnut". While post-war suburbanites absolutely did commute into the city, many contemporary suburbanites live, work, and shop in surburbs.
I remember a time when shopping at an American department store meant you had to "go into the city" to a place like this:
The same trend has also happened to many other industries across the board.
cafard 147 days ago [-]
My father commuted suburb-to-suburb for most of the years I lived at home, say 1958 to 1975. My impression was that this was not unusual then. But I had limited information about what any particular grownup did.
Department stores are fewer and fewer now. Most of the big malls around the Washington, DC, area are gone.
vel0city 148 days ago [-]
> which are generally highly concentrated.
Not in the slightest in DFW. That High 5 is going to service people coming from many dozens of square miles of suburbs to many dozens of square miles of offices. People are going to be coming from Plano, McKinney, Princeton, Wylie, Garland, Richardson, Sachse, Rowlett and heading to Addison, Northwest Dallas, Carrolton, Irving, Coppell, and Grapevine. That's just the traffic from the Northeast going to West.
It's not like most of these people in the suburbs of Dallas work in Dallas. They mostly don't, they live and work all over the Metroplex. And given its expensive to sell and buy land, people will often buy a house once and stay there even though their jobs might bounce all over the Metroplex.
lotsofpulp 148 days ago [-]
> The "homes" part is distributed, true, but guess what, once you have a good rail network, it provides decent coverage for that (which you can complement via walkability/bikeability/scooterability :-p, which makes for more liveable environments).
This is incorrect due to the size of land parcels that Americans aspire to. The typical 0.1+ acre size lot makes it so people are so spread out, no public transit will ever make sense.
eightysixfour 148 days ago [-]
> During rush hour most people are going from their homes to places of employment, which are generally highly concentrated.
This isn't as true in Dallas as in other places. The QoL associated with some of these problems in Dallas is part of the reason I left, so you're preaching to the choir, but the sprawl is intense.
panick21_ 148 days ago [-]
Tell me you don't understand how rail network work without telling me you don't understand how rail networks work.
vel0city 148 days ago [-]
Preface: I don't like this architecture. I think things need to change. I'm just describing what is.
These are people coming from several dozen square miles and dispersing into several dozen square miles, flowing through these chokepoints. They're commuting 40, 50, or more miles. You'd need these people to change several bus lines and several train lines. Those busses would be snaking through messy suburbs for them to be actually useful. Those neighborhoods to pick them up are sprawling with poor walkability and a 15 minute+ walk just to the major road bus stop for a lot of those people. And when they get off the train, they're probably going to need a bus to navigate the sparse fields of giant empty parking lots to their actual workplaces.
In fact, for a certain group of people this path practically already has a train service. US-75 runs parallel to the Red/Orange line. Assuming the person starts from Plano to go to their office job in Las Colinas/Irving (a massive assumption here, but practically best case), they won't even need to change trains. Let's ignore how they get to Parker Road station for now (Park and Ride? 15 minute walk through their neighborhood + same time as the park and ride?) and start the clock from there. They're going to commute to the Microsoft offices. They need to get in by 9:00 AM. So they instantly warp to the Parker Road Station, hop on the orange line at 6:46 AM. They get to North Lake College station at 8:07 AM. They then wait for the 229 bus at 8:21, take that 8 stops, hop off, walk a half a mile (~11min), and get there at 8:40. Nearly two hours and they only had to change once. And once again, that's instantly warping to Parker Road Station. Add another several minutes of drive or even more for a bus to connect to the train.
Next, they're going to take the highways, including toll ways. They leave from Parker Road Station, head down US-75, hop on Bush Turnpike, and it is an ~30min trip on average.
Or they want to avoid tolls. They take US-75 to 635 (taking this High Five talked about here), and it takes 30 minutes to an hour.
Now, theoretically this should get a little bit better. There will be a new train line with more of an East-West path that would be useful here. But it'll be a train change at Bush Turnpike Station, and service on this new Silver Line won't be great at first. Potentially a 30 minute wait for the next train at peak times. And it'll still take 50ish minutes after that transfer. So you'd look at maybe a 5 minute train ride from Parker Road to Bush Turnpike, wait 15 minutes for the next train, then still 50 minutes. Plus the 30 minutes for the bus ride and walk. Over an hour and a half, magically warping to Parker Road immediately when the train was about to leave and hopefully only waiting 15 minutes for the Silver Line train. We'll see that it is really like when it opens in late 2025 (hopefully). I'm still excited for it, I'm looking forward to not needing to drive and park all the way out to the airport for travel and having another way to Addison Circle for things like Oktoberfest and other events there will be great.
But this is also kind of a best case of someone taking the train versus driving. This is assuming someone lives close to the train lines in Plano. Their office is one bus line away from the station. Tons of people live even further out from there. Lots of people work at places which would require multiple bus transfers. The train doesn't even go halfway out into the sprawl, and the surrounding cities don't want to join DART.
But honestly, it makes little sense to me to have people living in Fairview, McKinney, Prosper, and Melissa trying to commute to an office job in Dallas/Irving/Grapevine/Westlake/etc. It's insane to me, but people choose it.
But a lot of people here just have a big aversion to taking transit. You're seen as an oddball to many for acknowledging it exists. We live right next to a bus stop that goes to a nice train station. My wife was looking at taking a job that would be immediately outside a train station. She looked at me like I was insane for suggesting she think about taking the train. I usually take it when I go into Dallas and people think it is incredible I survive. I take the bus to the city park with my kids and people wonder what happened to my car.
panick21_ 147 days ago [-]
I was replaying specifically to the 'all people go to the same place'. Just as you have highway interchanges, you have railway interchanges (that are much cheaper). Railways can go into multiple directions and intersect with other modes of transports.
I do understand the problem in the way the infrastructure is build in the area and that it isn't easy to just change and go to trains, that's not what I was suggesting.
I was specifically responding too:
"Assuming every single commuter is coming from and going to the same place, sure."
And that if of course nonsense. The whole point of a network is that you can route from one place to another. I didn't propose a whole new transport plan for the whole area. And I am not pretending that within 1 year you can change all of Texas infrastructure. I was simply pointing out a fundamentally flawed argument.
> But this is also kind of a best case of someone taking the train versus driving.
Well, this is the best case in particular situation you are describing where that kind of infrastructure has been under-invested in for 100+ years. Its not the best case for public transit.
It should NEVER take 30 min to swap from one train to another. In all of Switzerland you 90% of all connections are 10min or less. That's for the whole country including buses. If the train infrastructure was more modern and electric, trains could likely be faster. If the buses had their own lanes (not like Texas doesn't have enough lanes) the avg speed of the bus could likely be improved quite a lot.
This is just about infrastructure choices, apparently Texas can build tons of super complex incredibly expensive highway interchanges but an electric train that leaves every 15min is apparently impossible.
DoT in Texas is still on that 1960 highway building mania and is still destroying black neighborhoods so that subburban wight people can get to their office jobs at the oil company or whatever. The first step is recognizing the problem, and they are still working on that.
The whole area seems like its pretty dense with a lot of people, I don't see why it couldn't have good transit. Even just with buses on existing roads. As long as you make some room for them and give them the appropriate priority and so on. A lot could be done for not that much money, if people actually wanted.
On of the biggest problem in the US is that your tax system if fundamentally unfair and massively subsidizes suburbia. That's arguable one of the most important things that need to change. I strongly suggest looking at the work done by Urban3 and Strong Towns.
vel0city 147 days ago [-]
Its incredible how you could read all of that and yet not have any takeaways to adjust your preconceived notions of the reality of life in this area.
> infrastructure has been under-invested in for 100+ years.
This isn't some subway built in 1920 that has barely even had a new train in the past 50 years. The Orange Line opened in 2010. The Red Line in 1996. Some of the stations opened in like 2014. The rolling stock is mostly stuff purchased post-2008. And with the Silver Line, those are all totally new stations on a totally new path with totally new rolling stock. Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about if you're thinking this is stuff that hasn't been invested in for nearly 100 years. But hey, you watched some YouTube videos, so you know exactly what the realities are like living in DFW and know precisely what would solve it.
> more modern and electric
The train in my example is pretty new and electric. Once again, you clearly don't know what you're talking about here.
> an electric train that leaves every 15min is apparently impossible.
The Orange Line and Red Line at its peak is like 7.5ish min intervals. Once again, you clearly don't know what you're talking about here.
> If the buses had their own lanes (not like Texas doesn't have enough lanes) the avg speed of the bus could likely be improved quite a lot.
What, we're going to have 100mph busses going on surface streets or something? Dedicated bus lanes make sense in areas where there's lots of traffic and gridlock, they can do a lot of good there. The bus in the example isn't in one of those places. That road isn't normally very crowded. Forcing the light cycles for the bus would probably save a minute or two, but once again the overall trip is losing by well over a half hour. The overall trip time is worse because you're going to stop that train several times along its path, that bus is going to stop and pick up people. Whereas the car, even if it goes a bit slower because of traffic, is still keeping its average speed at like 50ish mph.
> The whole area seems like its pretty dense with a lot of people
That's the thing. It really isn't. Some people have a several minute drive jus to leave their neighborhood, just to get to the first place where a bus stop would even remotely make any sense to be. Some parts are decently dense, and those are the places where people can and do reasonably take transit as their primary way of travel. But it is definitely not the norm. But hey, once again, you're someone that's watched a few YouTube videos and poked around on Google maps, you definitely know more than the person who's actually lived in it for over a decade.
> It should NEVER take 30 min to swap from one train to another.
Sure. But those trains are going to be largely empty even with the 30 minute service interval. Running them every 5 minutes is burning billions of dollars and lots of energy rolling empty trains. And in the end, look at the math. Shave 15 minutes off the trip. Shave 30 minutes off the trip. The highway path still beats out on time.
> This is just about infrastructure choices
Its far more about city design overall than just "infrastructure". You could replace all the highways overnight in DFW with trains that run every 30 seconds. It'll just increase the overall transit times for all these commuters. Do the math. Look at actual average speeds for whatever design you might propose. It is a fundamental issue with how the cities are laid out and designed from the very foundations. Those average commuters would end up changing trains several times on their commutes. That train is going to have to roll through a bunch of stations and stops in order to actually be useful to the riders. Because its not "mostly people in this area going mostly to that area", its people from an absolutely massive area going to an absolutely massive area.
> Even just with buses on existing roads. As long as you make some room for them and give them the appropriate priority and so on. A lot could be done for not that much money, if people actually wanted.
The thing is, once again, the density and overall design of where I'd want to go. There's a bus stop right outside my house. The routes from there make a decent bit of sense, they go along through a few shopping areas and to the nice downtown Plano area and that bus station there. But I don't often shop at those shopping areas. I go to slightly different ones. So now there would need to either be yet another bus line that goes to each of those different shopping areas, or so much bus service the next bus is just a couple of minutes behind. Otherwise, each of those changes really adds up in time, and suddenly I'm spending 2-3x as much time taking the bus than just driving.
And I'm lucky, I live literally on the edge of my neighborhood. Someone deeper in the neighborhood, it is a 15 minute walk to the main road where the bus is. With the weather right now having a heat index of like 110F. That walk alone is longer than what their drive would be to that store. So then what, we have busses snaking through all the small curvy neighborhood roads? Gee, that'll really make the overall travel time higher. This is why I just completely ignored the travel time for that person to Parker Road Station, you include that and for a lot of people it really blows the travel time up.
And to think, I'm in kind of a small and compact neighborhood for DFW. There's a lot out there with much bigger lots and more separated from the main roads.
So you see how its not just a matter of "well, if only we had more modern electrc trains, and more busses, maybe dedicated bus lanes." It is the fact that person is weighing a 15 minute walk in 110F heat versus leaving their house in an air-conditioned car and getting to their destination in the same amount of time as before they even got on the bus. That bus wait could be 0 minutes, that bus could go practically right where they wanted to go, the bus isn't really stuck in traffic for their route, but because of the layout of their neighborhood and the sprawling nature of all the places they might want to go taking the bus just didn't make sense.
Its far more than just "invest in the infrastructure!" It is changing the mindset. Its building new forms of housing, shopping, and working. And yes, actually building the trains and buying the busses. But we could quadruple the bus fleet of DART and change the train service interval to 10 seconds tomorrow and we'd still have roughly the same ridership. In the end though, I do vote for that more modern city design. I do vote to expand DART. I do vote for bike lanes and better traffic calming. And I do ride transit when it makes sense. I just wish it made more sense more often.
kuschku 147 days ago [-]
> Potentially a 30 minute wait for the next train at peak times.
See, that's already an issue. Even in small European cities, you'd expect the trains at peak time to arrive every 5min, in larger cities even every 1-2min
A train every 30min is what I'd consider "3am on easter sunday" level of service, not peak service.
Sure, right now there's not enough demand for that. But as they say, if you build it they'll come.
vel0city 147 days ago [-]
I agree, the service level on that train is pretty bad especially for peak. Hopefully they'll be convinced to run it more.
But change that wait, do the math, and compare it to the drive time again. Ok, we shaved a 15 minute average wait to 2 minutes or so. 13 minutes saved, awesome. We're still comparing a well over an hour public transit trip to a 30 minute drive on the tollways.
In the end you'll need to convince people the costs of the drive (all the many different types of costs there) are worth the trade for more than doubling the commute time.
devilbunny 146 days ago [-]
Just to throw something else into the mix: the Orange Line DART is at-grade in several areas (and around Las Colinas particularly). So you can't increase frequency too much without affecting traffic.
My in-laws live in Irving, near the Ritz (ex-Four Seasons). The only thing they would ever consider using DART for would be the Texas State Fair (including the UT/OU game), and only because the parking is so expensive and so far away if you drive down there that the time penalty is much smaller.
Then you have the facts on the ground that probably are older than DART: the North Lake College station is a perfect example of bad transit design, as the station is at the edge of the property while the buildings are centered. You could just as easily (with perfect foreknowledge) have put the buildings right next to the station and used the back of the property for parking lots, which adds almost no time to driving but makes transit much more appealing (as it is, those who disembark there have to walk across the entire parking lot to get to the school).
Even worse, the University of Dallas station that has almost no pedestrian access at all. It would take ten minutes walking just to get to the other side of the highway because of the convoluted route you would have to take.
Traffic has to be really bad before public transit with a lot of stops is faster than door-to-door in a car, assuming there's parking at the other end.
You can do many things to make cities more transit-friendly, pedestrian-friendly, bike-friendly. But drivers aren't epsilon-minus semi-morons, and while a car in central Paris or Amsterdam is a liability, in most of Dallas it's at best a minor inconvenience to find parking. And there's absolutely nothing that can ever beat the convenience of a private conveyance. There's a reason really rich people fly private. It goes where you want, when you want.
I took my wife to the airport the other day. There is no public transit that goes to our local airport; you have no choice but to get in a private car or taxi unless you've got serious stamina for walking on fully-exposed public roads (no shade, no rain shield) with no sidewalks and 60+ mph (100 km/h) traffic for tens of miles. On the plus side (for the passenger), I dropped her off more or less right outside the check-in counter and security. She didn't spend more than a minute or two, tops, for all her indoor walking around to the gate.
kuschku 147 days ago [-]
The question is whether that needs to be the case.
By combining train and car you can usually end up faster and cheaper if done well as trains won't be stuck in traffic and commuter trains can reliably run at 120-160km/h.
Once again it kind of comes back to the density. Without the density, you'll end up with a lot of stations to try and make the line useful to people. With lots of stations, you're not realistically going 120-160km/h average speeds.
These DART LRV trains do >100km/h peak speeds. But in the end if you halved the stations you'd really crush the ridership because there's just not enough stuff or people at any particular station.
kuschku 146 days ago [-]
> Without the density, you'll end up with a lot of stations to try and make the line useful to people. With lots of stations, you're not realistically going 120-160km/h average speeds.
> But in the end if you halved the stations you'd really crush the ridership because there's just not enough stuff or people at any particular station.
Of course there's enough people left.
First you build train stations near destinations. That's business parks, universities, airports, downtown areas, malls. Then you build train stations with lots of spacing into the suburbs so you can still hit peak speeds between them.
Typical station spacing depends on train speeds, but you can estimate with: 50km/h at 500m spacing, 90km/h for 2km spacing, 120km/h at 5km spacing, 160km/h at 10km spacing.
So you'll want to have 5km-10km spacing between the stations. That's not close enough for walking. But you can set up free parking at the station for anyone with a train ticket. At the same time you'll set up congestion charging for the destinations with stations.
Now the fastest and cheapest way to travel to these dense areas is to drive to the nearest station, park your car, and take the train. For the rest of the city the car remains the fastest option.
Nonetheless, at 2-5km average distance to the nearest station cycling becomes more viable, which primarily benefits teenagers and students.
Later on you can improve upon this by:
· creating bus and tram lines with cross-connections between the larger train stations to serve as distributor lines and connect more people
· changing the minimum setbacks for properties near the bus and tram lines to allow semi-detached and terraced housing. This makes cheaper housing available, increases density, makes transit more viable and still keeps the suburban lifestyle
· changing the zoning near the station to develop 5-over-1s, with 1 level of businesses, 5 levels of apartments and an underground parking garage. This would allow creating something resembling the "main streets" of foregone eras.
Overall you can make these changes over the span of a generation. This is how cities grew during the industrialization in the first place (including in the US) and how european cities have recovered from the post-war car-centric urban design which had destroyed more cities than the war.
vel0city 146 days ago [-]
Once again you're telling me how it should be instead of looking at the realities of what is.
Take a look at the route for the Red/Orange lines on DART. Tell me which stations get the axe to make that spacing. Do we kill Downtown Plano or Cityline? Do we kill the stop with the easy bus transfer to the Richardson library and city hall? Do we kill the station next to the massive apartment complexes and the concert hall and office park at Galatyn? Or all the mixed use at Spring Valley? Do people lose access to the hospital and medical facilities near Forest Ln? No more shopping at all the stuff at the Shops at Park Lane and NorthPark mall? Do SMU students lose access to the network by taking away Lovers Ln? Forget all the mixed use at Mockingbird? Tell me, who gets the axe? And you really think we're going to keep ridership up if we eliminate the stop at the hospital or eliminate half the apartment complexes on the path?
The only easy stops I see to eliminate are the ones downtown where it's acting like a streetcar. There were plans for a "D2" project to move these lines underground and change the number of stops.
And all of this is also still assuming there is the bus connections to take you East/West, because there's still so much you miss at each stop on just the train alignment a few miles either direction.
kube-system 148 days ago [-]
That's 500k vehicles not 500k people.
While the plurality of vehicles could be single-occupant passenger vehicles, a good chunk of those vehicles are freight, multiple-occupant passenger vehicles, and some are even busses.
msisk6 148 days ago [-]
Being someone that has sat in a lot of traffic in Texas on these interchanges, the number of vehicles with more than one person is a rounding error.
There's a few trucks hauling freight, but they try to miss the cities during rush hour.
kube-system 148 days ago [-]
> There's a few trucks hauling freight
There's a lot of trucks hauling freight. The US has the largest train network in the world, it notoriously handles primarily freight, and still, more than 70% of freight in the US goes by truck.
If these roads are the average urban interstate highways, then about 10%ish of the traffic is heavy truck traffic.
I meant there's few trucks during rush hour. Overnight it's a different story. Last month I was going down south I-35 around midnight and got stuck in construction traffic in Waco and it was about 80% trucks.
kube-system 148 days ago [-]
Ah, I see. That's really just another reason why a 500k vehicles/day problem shouldn't be approximated as a problem of moving 500k people only during rush hour.
hombre_fatal 148 days ago [-]
1 vehicle = 1 person is especially noticeable when you're in the HOV lane zooming past traffic, a sea of thousands of vehicles that can't take the HOV lane.
In fact there are so few people in the HOV lane that I always feel like I'm doing something wrong when I take it, like I misunderstood the rules. It can't be this easy.
Nah, I really am the only person on the highway with more than one person in the car.
panick21_ 148 days ago [-]
The overwhelming majority of vehicles are single-occupant, specially during commute.
kuschku 147 days ago [-]
Sure, and we'd still need a highway and an interchange to handle the busses, trucks and taxis that'd remain.
But that could probably be handled by a US Highway and a diamond interchange instead of multiple interstates and a 6-layer interchange.
pixl97 148 days ago [-]
You mean hundreds if commuter rail lines because the population isn't centered around dense points that make rail useful.
We're in a catch 22 trap that will cost trillions and likely a century to get out of.
kuschku 147 days ago [-]
What I'd do is identify existing locations of denser development. That can be old downtown areas, universities, airports, old business parks, etc. Even Texas has those.
We've actually had similar issues in many post-war suburbs in Germany when trying to convert them to transit in recent years.
The solution isn't to remove all driving, just driving in areas with too much traffic. So park & ride concepts were created. You build train stations at major hubs and at locations at the edge of town and connect them.
e.g. my mum's commute changed from "drive for 45min in traffic" to "drive 5min to the neighborhood train station that shares its parking lot with the hypermarket next door, wait 10min, ride the train for 5min, arrive at the train station next to her office".
Her commute was cut in half, the business can collect revenue from their mostly unused parking lot during the week (it's sized for saturday shopping traffic), the train station doesn't have to build their own parking lot (the operator pays a few cents per train ticket to the business), and every person using this line is one less car on the road.
This model is already profitable (!), but you can expand further.
You can set up bus or tram routes that offer cross-connections between train stations to further connect schools, university dorms, malls, etc.
You can then improve connectivity within of suburbs. Introduce cross-connections between cul-de-sacs for pedestrians and cyclists, connecting suburbs, apartment complexes, local businesses and train stations.
The density won't be high enough to make walking to the train station viable, but cycling to the station certainly will be. That's not a solution for everyone, but it increases freedom of movement for teenagers and retirees.
So far, all of this is possible in the US today.
But we can dream beyond that:
You'd really want to change the zoning around these hubs over time.
Ideally you'd want to build 5-over-1s with an underground parking garage, shops and stores on the bottom floor, and apartments on the higher floors.
For businesses that need more space you can give the bottom floor a larger footprint and add a green roof which provides something of a community backyard for the occupants of the apartments. Bonus points if you build it as a courtyard in the middle with balconies facing the courtyard.
You'd really want to avoid high rises to ensure you get a growing circle of mid-density development around these hubs, somewhat reminescent of what main streets used to look like (or Disney's Main Street USA with two more floors ontop).
A few cities in the US have actually gotten this far already!
European cities, which suffered more destruction from post-war car-centric city planners than from the war itself, have been using these steps to slowly recover.
These steps are also how cities around the world grew during the industrialization, and how the US got the main streets of old in the first place.
Getting this far will take a whole generation, but where do we go from here?
While this would be the end for solving local commuters, it'd only be the beginning for inter-city journeys.
HSR is 2×-3× faster than cars and can be faster than flying for journeys below 1500-2000km, but it only works if you've already got local hubs with a dense transit network connecting them to the rest of the city.
oremolten 146 days ago [-]
"This model is already profitable (!), but you can expand further."
How many years is the break even point before profit is generated charging riders even 100$ per trip?
Some of these highspeed rail projects proposed across the USA have a 1-2000 year break-even excluding maintenance over 2000 years @ 100$/rider/trip
massysett 148 days ago [-]
Heh, I read the numbers before your last statement and drew the opposite conclusion: if the interchange is moving as many cars as 4 subway lines, seems a bargain, especially as subways are expensive and have much more limited networks than roads.
stetrain 148 days ago [-]
And in the video the quote about keeping traffic flowing is laid over footage where the traffic is nearly stopped and creeping through the interchange.
pixl97 148 days ago [-]
Before this exchange 635 was just stopped around 5pm. That is part of the problem is you fix one spot and it move the pinch point down to the next exit.
mschuster91 148 days ago [-]
And now imagine that these 500k people would be served by a decent network of trains or even buses. That would immediately reduce the demand for infrastructure, simply because how much more efficient even a single decker bus is in passengers/m² of occupied road space.
criddell 148 days ago [-]
> more efficient
Depends on what you are optimizing for.
I can drive to work in 15 minutes, door-to-door. I used to ride the bus and sometimes I would be waiting that long just for the bus to appear.
The other factor is weather. Not many of the bus shelters around me (I’m in Austin) are air conditioned. Right now it’s 103F / 39C with a feels-like temperature of 107 / 42. Depending on your health, just walking around can be dangerous.
Gud 148 days ago [-]
Have you been to a city(and country) with a good public transport system?
I live in Zürich(not from here) and it blows my mind how convenient it is to walk 25 meters to the nearest tram stop and easily get to anywhere in the city.
I used to think like you, that having car was a necessity, even freedom. Now I see it for what it is, a ball and chain.
j-bos 148 days ago [-]
- The municipality of Zurich has an area of 91.88km²
- The Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex, urban area (excluding huge swaths of land where people live and presumably need commute from) has an area of 4,524.44km²
Numbers taken from wikipedia.
weissbier 148 days ago [-]
I think it's difficult for Europeans to grasp the size of the US.
Texas alone is twice the size of Germany - which is really crazy.
Gud 147 days ago [-]
Why would that be difficult?
devilbunny 146 days ago [-]
An intuitive grasp of the size of the US eludes a lot of Americans, let alone a lot of Europeans.
When an American says, "that is a three-day drive", they don't mean it will take three days of six hours a day with breaks every hour or two. They mean it will take three days of driving 12+ hours a day with 10-minute breaks every three or four hours. NY to LA is around 41 hours of actual driving per Google. So three consecutive 14-hour days just in the car, not counting getting a hotel room along the way, eating, using the bathroom, showering...
Gud 143 days ago [-]
It was said specifically while in this discussion, directed at me.
I travel world wide for work, 350 days a year. I know exactly how big the globe is.
That I would drive across a continent is ludicrous.
That many American cities are these monstrosities where car travel is the only way to navigate is because of poor design not out of necessity. The American car industry managed to halt the installation of public transport to a more effective degree than their European counterparts in the 50-60s.
This is not because Los Angeles is bigger than Zürich, or that it takes twice as long to cross the US compared to Europe by car.
In Zürich and Switzerland, they have highly effective trains. The US could do the same, but choose not to.
Gud 147 days ago [-]
What's the argument here, it's not possible to make train/metro/tram-lines long enough?
Everytime(without fail) I mention how fantastic public transport can be using Zürich as an example, Americans mention that the "US is simply too big".
But that is not an argument! Build more lines? London also has a pretty solid public transport system(though not as great as it could be, due to how car centric the country is).
s1artibartfast 148 days ago [-]
To be fair to the parent poster as well, almost everyone within the 5000km2 around Zurich is within a couple minutes walk of public transport.
It is really is quite remarkable. However, I think this is enabled by expensive high density apartment housing.
Americans would consider the apartment sizes inhumane and a supermajority of the population are locked out of our owning a home.
Gud 147 days ago [-]
You are making the argument that Americans would consider it inhumane to live in Swiss apartments because they are too small?
s1artibartfast 147 days ago [-]
I was being hyperbolic, but yes, I think they would consider them too small and too old. Many would simply be illegal in the US due to their lack of amenities.
Gud 146 days ago [-]
Sorry, but the Swiss are excellent builders.
I would guess there is a big cultural difference between where Americans and Europeans(in general) spend their days. I would guess Americans spend their days at home watching television while Swiss in particular are more outdoorsy and do a lot more activities.
I don't know why you think there are fewer amenities here than in the US. What specific amenities do you think are lacking?
a 15 minute walk from me there are public baths(free, including the amazing Limmat river with crystal clear water), hiking(free), amazing bars, night clubs and restaurants.
s1artibartfast 148 days ago [-]
Switzerland in its entirety is less than 10% of California and smaller than San Bernardino county.
That said, US Metro cores are denser than anything in CH but have worse transit, demonstrating the importance of door to door analysis. Nobody wants to commute via mixed private and public transport.
yongjik 148 days ago [-]
Sounds like you experienced car vs. bus in a car-optimized city and liked the former, which is pretty understandable.
In a bus-optimized city, you'd be saying something like "Sure I can drive to work in 15 minutes, but it takes 5 minutes to park, costs $20 a day, and it's ten minutes walking from the parking lot to the office. Much better to take a bus that stops right across the street."
hombre_fatal 148 days ago [-]
Also, very few US cities have the balls to give buses their own lane. So any time you take the bus, you sit in the same traffic as everyone who took their car instead of zooming past traffic like you should be doing.
estebank 148 days ago [-]
You need to compare not against what you currently have, but rather what you'd have if there was political will and budgets comparable to what was spent on the existing car infrastructure. Otherwise is saying that no-one wants a bridge to cross a river because no-one swims across.
criddell 148 days ago [-]
Well that's a problem. I'm not willing to pay anywhere near as much for public transportation as I am for a private vehicle and everything that goes with that.
But I do think you are on the right track. I think public transportation in the form of buses doesn't make a lot of sense. But if Musk had been able to deliver on his promise of self-driving cars, then a giant city operated (or at least funded) fleet of small autonomous vehicles offering door-to-door service and route flexibility could change everything.
oblio 148 days ago [-]
Self driving cars don't solve high traffic volumes. Cars just can't move enough people per hour, I think the average lane can move about 1800 cars per hour and most people don't share rides unless forced to. So that means about 1800-2500 people per hour per lane. A decent subway moves about 20 000 people per hour per line, I think.
Cars are low to medium density transport, at best.
bsder 148 days ago [-]
> most people don't share rides unless forced to.
That wasn't true in the past. My father used to carpool with other teachers for 20+ years. I remember a lot of carpooling through the 1980s and into the mid 1990s where it fizzled out.
I would suggest, however, that self-driving cars would be fine for carpooling. Most people would have no problem carpooling with a self-driving car if it always picked up the same bunch of people every day. If I can commute in 35 minutes or take a self-driving carpool for 45 because it stopped to pick up 3 other people from my department along the way, that would be fine.
vel0city 148 days ago [-]
People got into carpooling because of the oil crises. Then the oil glut happened, things got cheap again, those carpool groups broke up, and it became uncommon again.
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sroussey 148 days ago [-]
I don’t live in a place where just walking around can be dangerous to my health.
dylan604 148 days ago [-]
well, aren't you special then. what's the point of this comment?
pixl97 148 days ago [-]
Hello, texan here. No busses would do nothing for these people... pretty much the entire DFW area is surrounded by huge areas of low density suburbs. The busineses and locations these people are going to covers hundreds of square miles.
Car culture builds car cities. Once you have a car city it's nearly impossible to fix it... it's too big and expensive and low density to fix.
oblio 148 days ago [-]
Well, there are solutions but then you get into even uglier politics.
Allow higher density housing to be built without opposition (for example up zoning 1 level should be automatically approved: single family home can be torn down to build a duplex, etc). Then reduce and remove parking requirements.
Once that's done density will just go up on its own and... cars don't scale. Traffic will absolutely murder everyone and they'll start demanding public transit.
However this whole path is killed via NIMBY.
vel0city 148 days ago [-]
Careful what you wish for. You have to wish the whole wish otherwise the monkey's paw will get you. Wishing for higher density without also pushing for better zoning policies overall will just make the traffic another level of pain, which is something seen in a number of cities. Sure, we'll then just build massive apartment complexes, one right next to the other. Where's the grocery store though? Where do these people work? Oops.
I see so many new residential projects with small lots or apartments. That's great! But still the zoning forces just housing, so its just homes on homes on homes for miles.
morsch 148 days ago [-]
Park + ride
pixl97 146 days ago [-]
Vel0city's reply kind of covers why this doesn't work, but I'll expound on it.
Where does the bus go? If you have dense city cores with business, commercial, and shopping it makes sense.
Living near Austin, I could take a bus to a place like the domain and have shaded walkways where I could walk to most shops without dying of heat stroke.
If I'm not going to the domain, I'm looking at businesses with huge parking lots strung along stroads. Walking from the bus drop off to a store might just kill you on a day like yesterday where it was 108F, and parking lot temps are closer to 130F.
Also getting to where you want to go over the huge spread out cities may involve waiting for 5 or 6 different busses.
And then hopefully your park and ride is being watched and you're windows aren't broken out.
morsch 146 days ago [-]
Admittedly, P+R is only a (kind of) solution for people of suburbia commuting into the office towers etc of the city. Pretty common scenario around the globe, but maybe not in Texas. Escooters are nice to cover the last mile.
dylan604 148 days ago [-]
Now imagine you've designed said trains or buses lines. Where did you put them? How much money did it cost? How many people use them now that they are built? Please, enlighten us with how much better you are than those that are currently in place that have tried and failed.
db48x 147 days ago [-]
That’s 500k vehicles, not people. It includes freight.
tonymet 148 days ago [-]
i resent the default cynicism that is trendy when discussing highway infra. A clear bias against cars as ugly, dirty , polluting, etc.
This interchange provides food and prosperity to millions of people. And it's an incredible feat.
The cynical attitude is just cliche and tacky give it up.
thank you for sharing I found this entertaining and cringe-worthy
jessriedel 148 days ago [-]
Does anyone know why the flyover ramps in a stacked interchange usually have such large vertical clearances? The vertical separation seems much larger than necessary to accommodate the tallest trucks allowed on the highway.
Obviously there may be many contributing factors, but I expect one is dominant. This one is most convincing to me: The flyover ramp generally needs to go over some things and under other things. Additionally, for both safety and rider comfort, the ramp needs to be vertically smooth, not having fast drops or rapid climbs. That means ramp A might pass over ramp B by a lot more than the minimum amount because ramp A also needs to pass over ramp C just a bit later, where it does so by a much lower amount. With many overlapping constraints like this, most ramp intersections are much higher than the minimum clearance even though none can be lowered without either (1) making one of the clearances below minimum or (2) forcing a ramp to rapidly climb/descent.
chiph 148 days ago [-]
The clearances in Texas are taller than ones I've seen in other states. The national standard is 17 feet, but Texas often uses 18 feet (5.4 meters) or more. Bridges on the East coast interstates sometimes don't even make 17 feet (they often predate many standards).
The theories I've heard as to why TXDOT does this include: they wanted sufficient clearance for mobile oil drilling rigs, military vehicles[0], "just in case", and of course, bragging rights.
You can zoom in and click on the blue dots to see clearances on major TXDOT bridges here:
[0] The US interstate system wasn't really planned for use by the Department of Defense in time of war, but the bill was named "National System of Interstate and Defense Highways" to help it get passed in Congress. This isn't to say that during a national emergency, the highways couldn't be cleared of civilian traffic.
It's an interesting theory, but ChatGPT was skeptical, and I can't find anything on the internet that supports it.
Thanks for the pointer though.
bob1029 148 days ago [-]
Part of it may be due to constraints of the construction process itself (I.e. not disrupting existing traffic)
I've never seen one built all at once. It's always a bunch of incremental changes over time.
jeffbee 148 days ago [-]
It's because they let the same company design and build the interchange and own the concrete plant. "Design-build" project delivery. It is the same reason why the new HSR projects in California have ludicrous vertical and side clearance compared to other countries with better/cheaper HSR.
garaetjjte 148 days ago [-]
I don't follow, why they would increase their costs on purpose?
kube-system 148 days ago [-]
No clue as to the validity of the above claim, but some contract types expose the customer to actual costs exclusively. e.g. T&M or cost-plus.
bluGill 148 days ago [-]
Who is they? The desingers charge to more for harder designs so the more it costs the more they make. Similar for the builders.
bluGill 148 days ago [-]
design build works well for things they copy often. A design build house is your best deal on new construction. When things are unique costs blow up
gosub100 148 days ago [-]
I'm completely guessing, but maybe to prevent harmful oscillations from wind currents blowing between the roads?
0cf8612b2e1e 148 days ago [-]
I only had a quick skim so far, but I did not feel like the article gave a firm enough rationale?
I have seen scenarios in Texas when there is seemingly no other infrastructure or geography that could explain the over building.
missingcolours 148 days ago [-]
The tl;dr to the article is "Texas freeways have frontage roads, which add at least one additional level to a traditional stack interchange, and that makes them taller than interchanges in e.g. California.
The broader question I've always had, that's not addressed in the article, is "so why do California and Texas build so many stack interchanges while the rest of the country mostly does not?"
seijiotsu 148 days ago [-]
From the article:
> And the design that generally provides the most capacity, on the smallest footprint, (often for the highest cost), is the stack.
This would explain why there are plenty in coastal California, where there are tons of people to move around and where space is very much at a premium.
beowulfey 148 days ago [-]
That's an interesting thought. Are there statistics out there for "percentage of interchanges that are stacks"?
I've lived in CA and the Northeast. I didn't get the impression that either region uses them preferentially. Certainly I see them more in CA, but I feel like that is probably because the number of interchanges is higher, ha!
devilbunny 145 days ago [-]
Lots of people, lots of highways, lots of land that wasn't occupied by houses and people 100 years ago. Pretty simple.
Stack interchanges are very common for high-traffic areas, some of which wouldn't necessarily show up on your mental radar.
nonameiguess 148 days ago [-]
It's addressed. The frontage roads by any reasonable measure seem like an objectively stupid idea that the state largely regrets building so much of, but they did it because it made it easier to acquire the adjacent land to build the highways. There may not be any infrastructure or geography that would have made building differently any harder, but the land had owners and Texas is probably abnormally deferential to private landowners as US states go.
msisk6 148 days ago [-]
The frontage roads are great. If the freeway comes to a standstill you just cross over to the frontage road and continue. Doesn't matter if there's an exit or not. Everyone has giant 4x4 trucks so you can just exit where ever you want and hop on the frontage road. Eventually everyone does that and the frontage road gets clogged so timing is everything. Texas is interesting.
robotnikman 148 days ago [-]
As cool as the engineering is, I avoid such interchanges at all costs since the being so high up gives me panic attacks when driving...
stevenwoo 148 days ago [-]
Normally you are either going so fast you are looking far down the road and not over the side or really slowly, trying to not rear end the car in front of you, the height is not that noticeable unless one is a passenger. One time I was on a freeway in Houston at night and suddenly sparks started flying down on me while I was going at normal speed - it was a truck that had flipped on its side in the merge lane that was above me and to the left and was grinding against the road and the guardrail at about highway speed (for a little bit), that was a new fear unlocked.
jnwatson 148 days ago [-]
The first time I approached the High Five I got a pit in my stomach, and I'm not a particular anxious person. Its scale is astonishing.
malshe 148 days ago [-]
Me too! I can’t avoid them all the time but I slow down as much as I can safely (this is Texas so everyone drives at least 20 miles over the limit) and look straight ahead.
msisk6 148 days ago [-]
Once I was cruising down the 130 toll road around Austin just after rush hour listening to the radio and just keeping up with traffic. Then traffic started pulling away from me and I couldn't keep up; my truck wouldn't go any faster. Thinking I was having a problem I looked at the dash and noticed I was going 105 mph and was up against the speed limiter on my truck. Yeah, even when the speed limit is 85 that's not enough for Texans. ;)
malshe 147 days ago [-]
Ah 130 toll road! Yeah, I can totally imagine people zooming past you even when you were driving at 100+
msisk6 148 days ago [-]
You should try going over one of those on a motorcycle! Good thing I'm not afraid of heights.
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hoten 148 days ago [-]
I recall seeing a regional breakdown on what different parts of the US call the frontage road. Fun fact, apparently the Houston area is the only place that uses the term "feeder road" (or just "the feeder").
In fact, being from Houston, I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't know what you meant if you said frontage road. It's that pervasive.
jaccarmac 148 days ago [-]
After browsing these comments, I would like to encourage fellow Dallasites to read László Krasznahorkai's short story "Nine Dragon Crossing", available in the collection The World Goes On. It's the most accurate thing I've read about being human amidst our freeways.
glzone1 147 days ago [-]
While the article complains about cars one challenge is simply the government's ability to reasonably operate transit - this includes things like keeping anti-social riders off it, keeping it quasi-pleasant to ride / safe / on time / not ruinously expensive.
gosub100 148 days ago [-]
I remember reading a long form article on HN about 2 years ago that was about Texas roads and highways. It wasn't from practical engineering though. Maybe it was the website of the guy who Grady briefly mentions in his video?
fuzztester 148 days ago [-]
Okay, <rolls up sleeves> ...
From the OP:
>They say everything’s bigger in Texas
Me say:
$ echo "They say everything’s bigger in Texas" | sed 's/They/Texans/' | sed 's/bigger/biggest/'
echo ", including their egos."
SebFender 147 days ago [-]
We had a few great examples around Montreal when finally someone's brain kicked in and were removed and changed for better solutions - at what cost... well there's a great question.
nealmueller 147 days ago [-]
Answer to headline:
They rise so high to save some space,
while keeping traffic flowing at a steady pace.
I can’t take an engineering article seriously when it leads in with bias-revealing invectives. Does EVERYTHING have to be politicized?
freitzkriesler2 148 days ago [-]
[dead]
brcmthrowaway 148 days ago [-]
[flagged]
486sx33 148 days ago [-]
Perhaps Texas is uniquely specialized in building “up” and in a compact space due to all the oil and petrochemical industries and specialized knowledge ? This offers financial efficiency in building these stacked interchanges that might not be so cost effective elsewhere ?
I mean the less you move the cranes around the cheaper I’m sure
aj7 148 days ago [-]
The same reason that the ULA launch system costs more than SpaceX.
Cronyism.
drewcoo 148 days ago [-]
Video by that guy. Again.
Am I honestly the only one who wants to see a video of him getting punched in the face? He really needs to be punched in the face.
Everything's bigger in Texas, including egos.
Crucially, Texans are highly aware of "everything is bigger in Texas" trope and take pride in it. My favorite example is that everyone knows that Texas State Capitol is taller than United States Capitol (92.24m vs 88m)... But nobody will ever tell you that Texas State Capitol is only 6th tallest state capitol.
Source: lived in Austin for 2 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Capitol#
I guessed Nebraska, but was wrong. It’s Louisiana. Both finished in 1932, oddly.
The Texas State Capitol wasn’t the tallest state capitol finished in 1888 - that would have been Illinois - but it certainly was the largest. Indiana also finished their capitol in 1888, but was the shortest of the three. Weird how they seem to bunch up, as if there is some sort of “let’s build a capitol!” movement that takes hold from time to time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGg5rfBfWT4
i believe around the same time the empire state building was constructed as well.
I lived in Austin for 7 years and I had no idea about this fact.
Whenever the whole "everything is bigger in Texas" comes up, everyone smiles and rolls their eyes. I now live in Houston and its the same. People here think its kind of a joke. Though Texans definitely do take pride in Texas. I just don't think they take themselves as seriously as your comment suggests.
“You might give some serious thought to thanking your lucky stars you’re in Texas.”
And Kinky Friedman.
https://www.kxan.com/news/motorcyclist-killed-after-falling-...
She was nice. Worked at a local Taco Deli.
Reversing some of the substrings in that string would also result in a very good analogy.
Texans view Americans the same way Americans view the rest of the world - derisively, but it is those viewers who should be derided, and often are, by the groups that they deride.
https://hivemill.com/products/smbc-texas-shirt
Somehow I forgot to mention truck nuts. Car culture is something else entirely in Texas.
Something really didn't mesh with me.Too much focus on fakery and "big" I guess. (Especially all that "Roman" and "greek" flair after having just toured the real deal a few weeks earlier)
So we took advantage of the cheap accomodation and visited the stunning places around it.
That's just my own take.
The monorail from Mandalay Bay to Bellagio is free, but it isn’t public transit.
Buc-ee's is the Trader Joe's of Texas, find all kinds of weird things that are actually good, or at least novel. Also, cleanest public restrooms you'll probably ever experience. Decent breakfast tacos too
"I'm from Texas, what country are you from?"
The road concrete is roughened, you have good traction even in less than ideal weather. And concrete lasts an awful lot longer under heavy traffic. Smooth concrete would be like you are worried about, but the high speed roads aren't smooth concrete.
Asphalt is a hydrocarbon product and can sweat. But worse is the oil from cars. Drip, drip, drip--since it's on a hydrocarbon base it loosely bonds with it and simply accumulates. When the rain does come along the roads will be very slippery until there has been enough rain and cars to wash them clean. Until then, hydroplane accidents galore. Be especially careful around gas stations.
Also asphalt is more slippery than concrete. It will spill out oil.
Only poor cities will do asphalt, and they are in constant reconstruction.
I presume you are referring to [Buccee’s](https://buc-ees.com/about/world-record-holder/)
Also, statistically speaking, you're less likely to be shot in a Texas LGBTQ-friendly venue than a Colorado LGBTQ-friendly venue.
I was 8 in the "late 90s" dude. How old do you think people on HN are?
Texas fucking sucks, even if you're in Austin, Houston or Dallas. Especially post-2020.
While true, and while these places being by far the most population dense, they don't actually have any influence over the laws. Funny how that works. And those laws do matter.
Then the effect is 10X’d when useless suburbs are built. More car dependence. More time spent on roads. Traffic slows to a halt as suburbs fill up. Geniuses at the state transportation department believe we should just widen the roads. But continue to ignore decades of “induced demand” evidence.
In the specific case of Texas there's also a toll road system, however this only covers a fraction of the highways in the state and the tolls themselves don't account for all the incurred costs.
Realistically, it's the _only_ way to get around the US.
In most of the Old World, cities have existed for centuries—if not millennia—and were built for the human foot, not the car tyre. Hence most European and Asian city centres are dense, mostly walkable, and fairly small. From the 1800s onward as transport speeds have increased they've built dense mid-/high-rises in the suburban bits, and developed cheap, efficient, and highly-utilised bus and heavy rail public transport, both within and between cities.
Many such cities additionally have 'green belts' to prevent urban sprawl.
Actually I am misrepresenting the situation in the USA.
The US expanded with the railways, and many American cities were built along and at the end of railways.
But then in the 1950s, Americans collectively decided that public transport was useless and they bulldozed through their city centres, ripped up the trams and railways, and splatted veritable plates of highway spaghetti right through the middle of their cities (often through slums and ghettos mainly housing poorer people of African descent).
The causality for this was mostly the other way around. There was a lot of empty land around the cities -- unlike most of Europe or Asia -- so once cars became available people started moving there because they could get more space for less money and still commute into the city by car for work.
The real problem is that the people who did this didn't want the city encroaching on their suburban space, but that space was directly next to the city. So they zoned it for single-family homes only and then the only way to add new housing is for the city to expand horizontally. Which needs more roads and parking and reduces use of mass transit which in turn gets discontinued.
What you need isn't mass transit, it's to allow condos and mixed-use zoning in what is currently the suburbs, to reconstitute enough density that mass transit can actually work.
Lots of people at my office do drive 40-50 miles each way, but it's not because they can't afford the houses that are 5 miles away (in perfectly pleasant neighborhoods, near the central area that most services in the region are located in).
And then the cheaper parts of towns aren't bad either.
People living in the outskirts of huge population centers are the ones driving far for economic reasons.
It sounds like you just want everyone to live in a city and take public transit everywhere but cities are awful for your mental health[0] and most people in the US do not want to live in a major urban area. You can't have a huge geography and rural or suburban life without private vehicles.
[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7892359/
- making it difficult to get around safely by bike
- zoning restrictions that force development to be clumped in certain areas
- underdeveloped public transport with infrequent stops and limited range
- parking space requirements that limit development
- food deserts where people have to drive long distances to get groceries
There are many places in the world that have solved these problems. I don't get why it's so inconceivable to solve them in the US.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34315817/ (2021)
Note that the study you link to there is from 1994 and only controlled for the following criteria: sex, age, social class, marital status, unemployment, chronic illness and region of residence. Those aren't the things that put folks on edge about cities in 1994 or in the preceding years. 30 years on from 1994 and now in a different world, many of us are wondering why we're locked out of some of the benefits of a bit more density.
No ones saying we abandon all beyond our city walls to nature, instead they'll be farmland or productive rural activities like we already use them for. But we don't need every city of 500k people to mean that there's a 15 mile radius circle of strip malls in every direction.
It is usually possible to rent small apartments near work in most metro areas, but instead they prefer 3000sqft places to 600sqft and supermarkets to corner stores.
There is a huge amount that would have to change about the American dream and esthetic desires to enable car free European living.
I do agree we should build more density, but there is also still a large amount of convincing people to actually allow it and move there.
It's not like these zoning laws just appeared on their own one day. People vote for these things. People show up to city halls and fight densification. People fight against transit, they don't want those people coming in to their nice quiet neighborhoods and the undesirables in their apartments.
San Francisco 2024 growth rate is minus 2.4 percent. NYC 2024 growth rate minus 2.0. Boston minus 1.0 percent. High rent is more likely the result of NYC, SF and Boston renters being on the bleeding edge of rent setting software. Lucky them.
New home buyers usually care about their monthly payment. high mortgage rates mean they can afford lower sales prices. High tax rates mean they can afford lower sales prices.
Neither of these anti car strategies will ever gain traction with any but the youngest, most easily duped Americans, who are already stuck in high density housing for a combination of economic and career trajectory reasons. The approach America has taken for many decades with these young people is “they’ll outgrow it”. And they do, when children arrive and these young people, as their parents and grandparents before them, aspire to that “better family life” that low density housing affords.
This patronizing "they'll grow out of it" is a self fulfilling prophecy when suburbanism is the only option.
To give a concrete example of the apocalyptic talk you mention: We aren't going to be able to do this forever, there isn't enough land. Sure it worked for a couple dozen years while the USA built new highways and sold off it's now-close-enough-for-commuting land, but that time is running out. We can kick the can down the road, but the interest in what's borrowed will come due, though probably in a monetary collapse not a social one. After all, who doesn't want a private island all their own (if they can afford it, and it's maintenance)?
But let's say we can kick the can down the road forever, or functionally forever. Even in that world, for those of us that only want a 1500sq/ft house and a nearby corner store, can we please make that just a possibility? Like, legally? Similarly, can we get some legislative support for 3 or 4 bedroom apartments since as it stands they feel incredibly rare...
The suburbs have a lot of appeal, can we please also build other things at all, sometimes?
How about this, instead of designing your consumer luxury life around needing to go to a store or restaurant 2-3 times a day... instead maybe shape your habits around not being a mindless consumer.
wahhh it really is awful I have to drive for 30 minutes 1x a month to get groceries.
That's a nice luxury to have. I take it you're fortunate enough to live in a very temperate area with palatable weather year-round, rather than somewhere that gets 110° F in the summer, or ice storms in the winter?
Not everyone can afford to live on the beautiful, comfortable, and exorbitantly expensive cities along the west coast.
Okay, we don't get the 110°F in the summer here (only up to the 90's), but we do get the ice storms in the winter.
I still walk to get my groceries if I can, even if it's actively snowing. I just wish they'd plow the sidewalks here, I don't like having to choose between walking in the street or trying to walk on uncompacted snow in my boots while laden with groceries.
If you go to anywhere in Europe you will find plenty of places that prove the opposite.
Cities in the us are basically highway with warehouse around it.
It’s hard to navigate without a car, and public transportation are a afterthought.
We could start by making people who choose rural or suburban life pay the costs of such a life rather than foisting them on everyone else. Roads should either be toll roads or entirely paid for by gas taxes and vehicle registration costs. Gas taxes should have to include the cost of removing the pollutants from the environment.
A major driver of the interstate highway project was military in consideration because of the importance of logistics in being able to move troops around the country.
That's fine. Roll those costs into the price of food. That way, the amount of road tax you pay is proportional to how much goods and services you consume.
Meanwhile, the status quo is that everyone pays into the road system regardless of how much or little they use it - even if they don't own a car.
Roads have to get paid for no matter what. The only choice we have as a society is between taxing everyone versus taxing only the users.
Exactly right, but proving the opposite of what you request.
Once roads are built they're a sunk cost. Roads have to be resurfaced as a result weather damage regardless of how many people drive on them. Road capacity that exists and isn't used is lost. The incremental cost of an additional car driving down a road, the actual wear caused by the act, is trivial. Far less than the pro rata share of building or maintaining the road, or than existing gas tax, or the cost of even the collections infrastructure for road tolls. But the use has value to the driver and plausibly to others in society (e.g. their customers/employers/friends), so we don't want to discourage it unless its value is less than the incremental cost, since the cost of building the road and most of the maintenance is a sunk cost.
Which leads to the conclusion that the sunk cost of the road should be shared by everybody, since everybody benefits from having products delivered and emergency services even if they don't have a car.
Also, what’s wrong with beltways? The main flaw in the interstate highway system, from an urbanist perspective, has always been the highways cutting through the historic urban core, which tend to attract traffic just passing through. Houston has those too, but not really any worse than most American cities. Beltways are really great at diverting such traffic away from the urban core. Unfortunately, as cities expand, beltways tend to become part of the urban core, so farther out beltways need to be built to retain their advantages.
But I'll start with the simple version of the critique. Individual commuters make their decision about whether to make a trip based in part on the time that trip will take (a function of road congestion). Thus, adding road capacity will temporarily lower the cost of a trip, allowing more people to make it until congestion reaches the pre-expansion level. Housing does not have this problem because consumers make decisions about where to live much more infrequently.
As you can tell, "induced demand" is a bad if rather catchy name. To be fair to urban planners, the throughput of an expanded road does increase. However, the experience of using it stays the same or gets worse, and the cost (both $ and space) is disproportionate. Is the pro-transit argument, which I subscribe to.
Of course, the real world includes large real estate firms which are making frequent decisions on housing stock. So I agree that the build-more-housing-and-everything-will-improve crowd is wrong. But I don't think YIMBY/transit and anti-transit are the only choices. The former is a common archetype these days.
US forces had hard time moving about in Iraq due to its lower land use and actual US is 7.7x sparse-er. There's no way American car culture could just stop being car dependent. Abundant fast cars is potentially the only way it can work.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...
Whats the point of having all that room if you’re going to trap yourself in a small apartment tower?
So thoroughly was the con job that just now some groups have started to question it. Orgs like Sightline, Stronger Towns, micromobility, renewed interest in mass transit, and so forth.
Or do they, in Texas? Or is it just that Texas has one famous one and people extrapolate that to mean the whole state is absolutely smothered in interchanges, until it looks like a scene from The Fifth Element?
Typical stack interchange elsewhere has 4 levels: freeway 1, freeway 2, freeway 1 left turns, freeway 2 left turns. Frontage roads add 5th and occasionally 6th levels.
The other thing not mentioned is the proliferation of separate express lanes, which often have dedicated flyover ramps as well.
Still, to this layman it seems like a colossal engineering cost to build all those bridges and ramps for relatively modest gain.
Stack interchanges increase acheivable throughput because you can often build enough road to allow backups for one direction to not impinge on the other flows.
It's also easier to build effective signage so there's fewer surprise lane changes.
In fact, the TFA goes further than your wiki skim to add that the merging from the highway to the clover leaf requires slowing down on the highway while entering the highway from the clover requires accelerating. Both of these things are being done in the same piece of road. It does so with graphic animations. You'd probably enjoy the TFA
Instead, please consider helpfully linking to the animations[1] you're talking about, so that others can find them without having to waste time listening to content they already read.
1: https://youtu.be/-16RFXr44fY?t=185
Alternative responses are as simple as "thanks" or "you are correct, of course"
So it is to everyone's benefit to correct spelling and grammar errors. People learning English, kids, whoever... they all benefit from seeing correct language. Lashing out against it is infantile and counterproductive.
At a cloverleaf, the weaving between people entering a highway from one leaf and people trying to get onto the next leaf is an utter destroyer of traffic flow, especially when you add in some human behavior, where some people are assholes and won't let people merge in front of them, even when they're trying to merge to the other lane themselves.
Many highways otherwise would have much more capacity. The telltale sign of exit issues is highways that bog down to 15mph for a couple miles, only to open up to 60+ with the same number of lanes.
Total shame and often unnecessary. I wonder how many man-years are wasted as a result.
there is also the weave required between exiting off a loop and other traffic entering onto it. you could theoretically get rid of it by bridging one loop over the other but then you may as well just bridge more of it without the 270 degree turn at that point.
and there are also compromise designs like the cloverstack where only two opposite sides are the 270 loops to avoid the weaving problem.
IMO, maybe Texas does this because Texas gets a lot more taxes than they talk about (through high property taxes), and don't really want to spend them on anything else (like socialism!), so instead they build 10 lane highway systems for the billion cars and trucks every american should own.
Another third comes from revenues from oil & gas.
About a quarter comes from state gasoline sales tax and registration taxes.
So a little more than 90% of the funding for freeway projects in Texas comes from non-property tax sources.
But even then, a lot of the recent major highway projects in Texas had some kind of toll component to them whether that just directly be toll roads or tolled "express lane" projects which often have parts of those toll revenue backed bonds going to fund things like highway interchanges and on/off ramps for the freeways.
The vast majority of the property taxes I pay go towards the schools, the public parks, the fire/police/public service, libraries, and local roads. City+County taxes are ~0.710%, just the ISD and community college is ~1.16%. A massive chunk of those city/county taxes are roads and public service people, with a bit of parks department and other things like that thrown in.
The state gets its cut mostly by sales taxes though. 6.25% is the state sales tax, with things like groceries exempted. Cities can levy up to 2% additional, for a max rate of 8.25%. Of that 2% my city levies, half of that goes to public transit.
In areas where large highways were built over small highways, it isn't so easy to add an additional road.
It's an interchange that's tucked into the normal street grid of Chicago, taking up about 4 city blocks total, and requiring just 3 levels of bridges to get all the traffic to their destinations. The trick is that it relies on a windmill interchange rather than a stack (so the left turns aren't crossing each other in the center), and the Congress Parkway-into-Eisenhower Expressway goes from elevated highway to sunken highway over the course of the interchange. There's even a subway line in the middle of the interchange!
I think the better explanation is that the size of highway interchanges in Texas aren't meaningfully constrained, so there's little pressure to find ways to squeeze in more compact interchanges. Furthermore, I think Texas is motivated to make its interchanges high-speed--the highways look designed for a 65/70 mph speed limit, even near the city core, whereas the Kennedy Expressway near the Circle interchange drops down to 45 mph partially to deal with the confusion of the road (there are exits 51B-J on I-90 in this stretch, yes, that many exits in a single mile of road).
The big thing is space required, and how much structure you actually need. Texas gets hurricanes, which are a big deal, but not nearly as big of a deal as earthquakes out in california, so, building tall things out of concrete is much more viable than most places. The only real issue in some parts of Texas is that the water table is really close to the surface, so, if you want to build tall, you need significant amounts of footing work so it doesn't sink.
Thankfully, I've worked from home for years now, but back in the day, this used to feature heavily in my daily commute. My wife and I worked at the same place, so typically used the US 75 express lane where it existed, and it was a bitch. To go south, you have to get off the highway onto the frontage road and then back onto the highway.
My partner (who moved to Houston around middle school age) and her mom both call it the feeder, but I always assumed it was a midwest thing since mom's side of the family is all from Michigan.
That said, the old Harvard Dialect survey does suggest this is fairly widespread (though definitely more common in the Houston area): http://dialect.redlog.net/staticmaps/q_99.html
I've lived in several states where frontage roads are common (under various names), and Texas was the place where they were most plentiful.
Older interchanges tended to run the frontage roads below grade to make them cheaper. But more recent ones tend to keep everything above grade due to flooding.
Or is it just that Texas has one famous one and people extrapolate that to mean the whole state is absolutely smothered in interchanges
Texas has a crazy number of highway interchanges. This is a partial selection of highway interchanges with frontage roads just in Houston. There are probably a hundred more across the state:
https://maps.apple.com/?ll=29.874104,-95.556634
https://maps.apple.com/?ll=29.726083,-95.459588
https://maps.apple.com/?ll=29.784165,-95.561947
https://maps.apple.com/?ll=29.785693,-95.777690
https://maps.apple.com/?ll=29.771646,-95.154931
https://maps.apple.com/?ll=29.940698,-95.293735
https://maps.apple.com/?ll=30.128100,-95.229756
https://maps.apple.com/?ll=30.050496,-95.614099
https://maps.apple.com/?ll=29.799694,-95.451234
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.721469,-95.4944352,3a,75y,11...
Up on the ramp you're coming from the tollway that is, you can see quite a lot from up there.
But on the street view the Google car is heading SW at grade on the 2-lane frontage road, the main freeway lanes are to the right and become elevated, and the overhead ramp had to fly over everything that was already there.
Notice how the frontage roads give a street address and access to properties facing the "limited access" highway.
Apparently no other country makes local stores directly accessible from the highway so 5 layer interchanges just don't exist anywhere else. This is why Texas interchanges are the highest, because they're the only interchanges in the world with 5 layers.
Basically lets trucks use gravity to store their energy when making sharp turns and then get it back for nearly free.
-it doesn't have any lane merges, you can change from one highway to another without merging, your bridge just becomes a new lane on the next road
-these bridges are very long leading up to the turn, so it displaces a lot of traffic and shifts a lot of the lane changing upstream.
It is Texas, so anything is possible.
> At service interchanges it is desirable to design the interchanges with the crossroad above the freeway due to:
> - The crossroad above the freeway results in longer sight distances to the exit ramp and gore area.
> - The crossroad above the freeway allows gravity to assist the operation of both accelerating vehicles (the on-ramp has a down-grade) and decelerating vehicles (the off-ramp has an up-grade). In addition, the resulting grades generally provide longer sight distances.
But that's the main thing I can find right now.
Never understood when major exporters of $thing would also specifically heavily subsidize $thing
Nothing against the article, which covers an interesting topic. But this refrain gets tiresome, the railing against our "car obsession."
We have a big-ass country. We like to move about it. Many of us don't want or need to live on top of each other. That is all.
I'm even a car guy—I own a stick shift BMW—I just don't have much interest in getting into it to do literally any activity or errand other than walking around the neighborhood.
I see the appeal of both kinds of lifestyle. Some of my best friends live in nice Chicago neighborhoods where they don't need cars. They are not rich or even significantly "well-off" by most standards, and their homes did not and do not cost as much as a house in a suburban area.
The "rules" prevent profiteers from destroying the standard of living for people who moved AWAY from density. Why should such people be herded around the country, hounded out of their homes for someone else's (increasingly a corporation's) profit? That's akin to black people being herded out of their neighborhoods for the construction of a highway.
My confidence about this take is pretty high throughout the continental United States, but in Chicago it is something like 100%, since this is a local policy issue I work on here.
The defense of zoning is not "post hoc," since we're talking about today and in the future. The "racism" attack on it is ad hominem.
I'm not against development, or density in areas that are designated for it. I'm against the vilification of entire neighborhoods under a false narrative that veils a craven profit motive, in combination with an entitled gimme-gimme-gimme delusion that cheap housing is going to rain down on people who could but don't work for it... if only we wipe out those horrible houses inhabited by rich racists.
I say this as someone who owns an extremely and multivalently single-family property, the only property I own, and is working actively and primarily on upzoning that specific area. I have neighbors that would say what you're saying: you bought into wherever you live based on the promise that the state would commit arms to preventing any of your neighbors from admitting too many new residents. My response, when we succeed: "we are altering the deal."
What, exactly, qualifies as "sprawl" to you? Houses with yards? How do you propose we build those to make them "non-sprawly?" Most of your statement is true, though: "People who like suburban density went ahead and made zoning codes to basically prevent building anything but" that density. So?
Those codes exist in SOME areas. They give people a choice of what kind of area they live in. Yes, yes, they were all racist and evil back in the day. Today they serve a valid and non-nefarious purpose: giving people a choice.
"the few remaining places that don't require a car are rare and super expensive." Do you have specifics on that? Are you saying there are no small towns to live in? That condos and apartments in the downtowns and city centers and town centers and boroughs of United States cities are more expensive than houses?
Take L.A. for instance. It has become very popular to piss and moan about "single-family homes" and to pass craven developer handouts in the guise of sham "housing reform." Meanwhile, dead or dying malls sit with boarded-up anchor tenants (there's an abandoned Macy's a few miles from me) and vast empty parking lots growing weeds.
Also, downtown L.A. is not "full." Nor are other high-density areas across the county, if you look at vacancy numbers. And then there are the tracts of disused, formerly commercial or light-industrial parcels all over the city and county. And yet already-residential areas are targeted for destruction.
And I do mean destruction. In a drought- and heat-plagued area, there is no excuse to promote the wipeout of every last tree and the paving-over of every last yard for the construction of 10 units where a single house stood. Yes, recent state legislation allowed just that, WITH NO REVIEW REQUIRED OR POSSIBLE. A developer's dream.
Meanwhile, vast tracts that have already suffered these effects of "density," the aforementioned malls and parkingn lots, sit empty.
And on top of all this, nothing is being done about the corporate buy-ups of entire neighborhoods. This is even worse than the "shortage" itself, because it takes what housing does exist off the market PERMANENTLY. Corporations don't typically die and leave their homes to their kids. But people do, and corporations are scooping up those houses as fast as they can, exacerbating a home-ownership crisis that deprives Americans of their best way to build wealth.
Single family homes can exist in non-sprawling configurations (e.g. old streetcar suburbs), but in combination with the other rules you wind up with businesses that are required to be far away from homes, to have large parking lots, and therefore be mostly hostile to anyone arriving outside of a car.
I look at the nice rural town I grew up in and the city brownstone neighborhood I live in now, and see two places with lots of real estate demand that could not, in much of America, be built today. The very nature of why these places are appealing comes from the fact they were built before these zoning codes. The businesses and schools are in walking distance of houses and have far too little parking.
I don’t see why we can’t relax some of the rules in some places and let people have a choice.
My neighborhood was an example: A defunct theater behind our multi-unit house was sold to a developer, who built a massive residental building there. Our alderman had promised that new residential developments would be required to include parking with the sale of a unit. That was a lie.
As a result, many of the new residents decided that instead of buying a parking space in their building (where they WERE available), they'd just park on our streets... where we HAD to park because we had no other option. So now our standard of living took a huge hit, because we could no longer come home from work or the grocery store or other trips, and park and go into our homes. We had to circle the neighborhood in ever-larger radii for hours per week looking for parking. Real fun at 1 a.m... in the winter.
A thing to keep in mind: sweeping zoning changes don't happen that often! Once every 20 years --- not exactly, but roughly --- is about right. And over the last "80 years", they've tended to ratchet. Most major metros have never had a period of pronounced housing deregulation (like other industries did in the 1970s and 1990s), so insane decisions made in the late 1940s remain in effect today, but get retconned as if the quality of live protections they promise were part of the original deal, and not a knock-on effect of a system of residential apartheid.
There is no question that restrictive zoning (and its constructive equivalents, like setback requirements) satisfy real, valid preferences of some existing homeowners. That's not the debate. The debate is whether states and localities owe those homeowners the satisfaction of those preferences, and at what cost. The existing residents advocating for density are essentially free-riding. I don't have to blame them for doing that to see that it's not something to valorize.
I don't know if you've noticed but there are some actual real problems that the US is running into.
Building stuff is cheap relative to having to maintain it over its lifetime and then eventually replacing it. The more you build the more it costs to maintain it all.
That means that from purely an economical perspective there is an optimum where you provide the most transportation for the least amount of money. The US method of building more and more is slowly driving up the cost side of the equation and delivering less and less benefits. That's not hippy-liberal bullshit, but that is just a fact.
Just imagine that instead of adding extra lanes, they would build a good train connection between your cities. You could still drive as much as you want but there would be a lot less people on the road.
Its not that we're obsessed with cars, its that cars are the only option for reasonable, safe transportation right now.
This describes reality in Houston, and I do not get the impression that you’d like Houston at all.
Japan is about the size of the entire Eastern Seaboard. Japan has safe, fast, comfortable and competitively-priced high-speed rail through highly mountainous, earthquake-prone terrain.
What's the USA's excuse? No one is asking for a 4500 km-long railway from Los Angeles to New York. But a 1500 km-long one from Atlanta to Boston? Nope, can't do.
Forget that, not even a 700 km-long one between Washington DC, New York, and Boston (where many people arguably 'live on top of each other' already).
The US has no political will to up its public transport game, and your comment epitomises it.
In fact, the Eastern seaboard is one of the few places in the US where rail travel is a valid option much of the time.
> not even a 700 km-long one between Washington DC, New York, and Boston (where many people arguably 'live on top of each other' already).
https://www.amtrak.com/acela-train
> Acela offers downtown to downtown service between Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, DC, and other intermediate cities.
> But a 1500 km-long one from Atlanta to Boston? Nope, can't do.
https://www.amtrak.com/crescent-train
> Convenient trips from the Big Apple to the Big Easy. With service from New York City to New Orleans, the Crescent gives travelers a unique window to the beauty and heritage of the American South. You can tour Monticello or enjoy a wine tasting in the charming Virginia college town of Charlottesville. Or enjoy a stroll through the vibrant shopping and dining scene of Underground Atlanta. As you travel further south, you'll reach New Orleans, where you never run out of things to do. From jazz clubs to Cajun restaurants to Mississippi riverboat rides, the city was simply built to entertain.
So you'll have to change trains in NY to get to Boston, but one can definitely go from Atlanta to Boston by train.
In the end though, practically nobody would take a train from Atlanta to Boston. Even if you made it 200mph HSR, a direct flight would still be faster. And until both ends of that journey really make the city more walkable you're probably going to want to rent a car at your destination anyways so being at an airport at the edge of town versus the train station closer to downtown it doesn't make enough impact for most people.
Don't gete wrong I'm generally pro-train for good city pairs, but chances are I'd never take a train from say Dallas to Phoenix or Denver or Chicago. Flying will just practically always be faster. I'd take one to Houston or Austin or San Antonio though.
I’d argue the real reason people have cars is because if rent for a nice 1-bed only costs 700-1500 it doesn’t make sense to not also own a car. When people talk about a city that’s not “car-obsessed”, they’re usually referring to some place where even the wealthy can barely afford a car.
For one, a lot of the overpasses had two lanes. But then they merged down to one right before you got on the highway…
What’s the point in having two lanes on the overpass that merge just before you get onto the highway? There was always slow traffic because of this.
If it was me, I would always make it so that you lose equal number of lanes To the outgoing overpasses as you will get in incoming overpasses to prevent inefficient lane changes. So if you have six lanes, you get 4 branch off, 2 for each direction on the other highway and keep 2. Then you get the four back from the intersection. No lane change.
But the way they have it, there’s so much merging it , which is harder to drive, and I’m not sure it’s more efficient.
Any thoughts?
I've been on some bridges that have two lanes with a very narrow shoulder that then then merge into a single lane (with wider shoulders) at the end of the bridge, with the asphalt width not changing too much. I've always assumed that was so traffic could continue flowing on the bridge should one lane become blocked for some reason. Off the bridge a car can pull off the road if there's a problem to let traffic continue passing. You can't really do that so much on a bridge.
But I'm not a traffic/road engineer so that's just speculation on my part.
But if there are indeed being two lanes added due to the merge, agree that doesn’t make much sense.
If the former, also agree that they should’ve added two lanes instead of one. But that decision could’ve come down to physical limitations, cost, or something else.
While more permanent lanes seems more desirable, for lack of space or money or whatever, this compromise at least increases the capacity of the ramp to absorb the queue before it starts to back up into through traffic.
Of course, in practice the capacity is often not enough.
Around here, two lanes split, then they split into two north and two south, and then they merge again before rejoining the cross highway.
I mean you still end up with that at rush hour but I think that's what they are trying to do. There is no number or lanes they could add that would prevent it from being a parking lot twice a day.
When too many layers are needed, CALTRANS often goes for a tunnel underneath. See CA-92 at I-280, and SF's 19th Avenue at I-280.
At US-101 and I-280 in San Francisco, a frontage road does go through the ramps. The interchange was spread out horizontally to avoid piling up all the levels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Five_Interchange
I think literally every interchange in Germany has got its own article: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Autobahnkreuz_in_D...
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Interchange
2: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/38.791557/-77.175887
Truly pitiful numbers for a project of this scale lol.
That's 1½-2½ commuter rail lines or about 3-4 subway lines.
Such interchanges are truly a monument to stupidity.
Assuming every single commuter is coming from and going to the same place, sure.
The "homes" part is distributed, true, but guess what, once you have a good rail network, it provides decent coverage for that (which you can complement via walkability/bikeability/scooterability :-p, which makes for more liveable environments). And "train commuter rage" is much less frequent than "road rage" plus a lot more people die or get maimed driving a car/getting hit by a car than they do because of trains.
This is not true and is one of the problems with getting mass transit to work in the US.
Most of the employment in the US is now smeared across the city. I'll give Austin as an example.
Austin employment has spaced out clumps. Downtown. The UT campus. The Domain (old IBM/NI area). The Arboretum. Oak Hill. The "new" airport.
Austin housing has similar clumps, generally dictated by how much you earn. You're probably further out than you would like since the real estate in the center is ridiculous. So, Leander, Hutto, Garfield, or Dripping Springs.
Now, plot the flows on a map. Note the massive pileup in the center as people attempt to change sectors across the city. Most modern cities are like this. There are not two or three obvious points that would get a big chunk of the traffic.
I chose Austin, but San Diego, Pittsburgh, Nashville, etc. all look similar.
And, the news is worse than that. The "white collar" jobs that could be concentrated have also been the most displaced by surburban office parks or by WFH. The types of jobs that most people are employed in (service and warehousing--Walmart/Amazon/FedEx/UPS/etc.) are generally specifically positioned where real estate is cheaper which is almost by definition off of any mass transit connector.
That used to be true in the US. But over the past 50 years, the dominance of the automobile combined with traffic patterns (and related real estate trends) have incentivized the opposite to happen. Suburban commercial development facilitates easier parking, and quicker commutes over secondary highways rather than the traditional congested main arterials into city centers. Many cities in the US already have or are starting to "doughnut". While post-war suburbanites absolutely did commute into the city, many contemporary suburbanites live, work, and shop in surburbs.
I remember a time when shopping at an American department store meant you had to "go into the city" to a place like this:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/99/a2/dc99a2e79cac5ab0fe5f...
Now, when they want to go to a department store, many Americans drive to somewhere like this, closer to their homes:
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/11/60/12/19333814/3/1200x0.jpg
The same trend has also happened to many other industries across the board.
Department stores are fewer and fewer now. Most of the big malls around the Washington, DC, area are gone.
Not in the slightest in DFW. That High 5 is going to service people coming from many dozens of square miles of suburbs to many dozens of square miles of offices. People are going to be coming from Plano, McKinney, Princeton, Wylie, Garland, Richardson, Sachse, Rowlett and heading to Addison, Northwest Dallas, Carrolton, Irving, Coppell, and Grapevine. That's just the traffic from the Northeast going to West.
It's not like most of these people in the suburbs of Dallas work in Dallas. They mostly don't, they live and work all over the Metroplex. And given its expensive to sell and buy land, people will often buy a house once and stay there even though their jobs might bounce all over the Metroplex.
This is incorrect due to the size of land parcels that Americans aspire to. The typical 0.1+ acre size lot makes it so people are so spread out, no public transit will ever make sense.
This isn't as true in Dallas as in other places. The QoL associated with some of these problems in Dallas is part of the reason I left, so you're preaching to the choir, but the sprawl is intense.
These are people coming from several dozen square miles and dispersing into several dozen square miles, flowing through these chokepoints. They're commuting 40, 50, or more miles. You'd need these people to change several bus lines and several train lines. Those busses would be snaking through messy suburbs for them to be actually useful. Those neighborhoods to pick them up are sprawling with poor walkability and a 15 minute+ walk just to the major road bus stop for a lot of those people. And when they get off the train, they're probably going to need a bus to navigate the sparse fields of giant empty parking lots to their actual workplaces.
In fact, for a certain group of people this path practically already has a train service. US-75 runs parallel to the Red/Orange line. Assuming the person starts from Plano to go to their office job in Las Colinas/Irving (a massive assumption here, but practically best case), they won't even need to change trains. Let's ignore how they get to Parker Road station for now (Park and Ride? 15 minute walk through their neighborhood + same time as the park and ride?) and start the clock from there. They're going to commute to the Microsoft offices. They need to get in by 9:00 AM. So they instantly warp to the Parker Road Station, hop on the orange line at 6:46 AM. They get to North Lake College station at 8:07 AM. They then wait for the 229 bus at 8:21, take that 8 stops, hop off, walk a half a mile (~11min), and get there at 8:40. Nearly two hours and they only had to change once. And once again, that's instantly warping to Parker Road Station. Add another several minutes of drive or even more for a bus to connect to the train.
Next, they're going to take the highways, including toll ways. They leave from Parker Road Station, head down US-75, hop on Bush Turnpike, and it is an ~30min trip on average.
Or they want to avoid tolls. They take US-75 to 635 (taking this High Five talked about here), and it takes 30 minutes to an hour.
Now, theoretically this should get a little bit better. There will be a new train line with more of an East-West path that would be useful here. But it'll be a train change at Bush Turnpike Station, and service on this new Silver Line won't be great at first. Potentially a 30 minute wait for the next train at peak times. And it'll still take 50ish minutes after that transfer. So you'd look at maybe a 5 minute train ride from Parker Road to Bush Turnpike, wait 15 minutes for the next train, then still 50 minutes. Plus the 30 minutes for the bus ride and walk. Over an hour and a half, magically warping to Parker Road immediately when the train was about to leave and hopefully only waiting 15 minutes for the Silver Line train. We'll see that it is really like when it opens in late 2025 (hopefully). I'm still excited for it, I'm looking forward to not needing to drive and park all the way out to the airport for travel and having another way to Addison Circle for things like Oktoberfest and other events there will be great.
But this is also kind of a best case of someone taking the train versus driving. This is assuming someone lives close to the train lines in Plano. Their office is one bus line away from the station. Tons of people live even further out from there. Lots of people work at places which would require multiple bus transfers. The train doesn't even go halfway out into the sprawl, and the surrounding cities don't want to join DART.
But honestly, it makes little sense to me to have people living in Fairview, McKinney, Prosper, and Melissa trying to commute to an office job in Dallas/Irving/Grapevine/Westlake/etc. It's insane to me, but people choose it.
But a lot of people here just have a big aversion to taking transit. You're seen as an oddball to many for acknowledging it exists. We live right next to a bus stop that goes to a nice train station. My wife was looking at taking a job that would be immediately outside a train station. She looked at me like I was insane for suggesting she think about taking the train. I usually take it when I go into Dallas and people think it is incredible I survive. I take the bus to the city park with my kids and people wonder what happened to my car.
I do understand the problem in the way the infrastructure is build in the area and that it isn't easy to just change and go to trains, that's not what I was suggesting.
I was specifically responding too:
"Assuming every single commuter is coming from and going to the same place, sure."
And that if of course nonsense. The whole point of a network is that you can route from one place to another. I didn't propose a whole new transport plan for the whole area. And I am not pretending that within 1 year you can change all of Texas infrastructure. I was simply pointing out a fundamentally flawed argument.
> But this is also kind of a best case of someone taking the train versus driving.
Well, this is the best case in particular situation you are describing where that kind of infrastructure has been under-invested in for 100+ years. Its not the best case for public transit.
It should NEVER take 30 min to swap from one train to another. In all of Switzerland you 90% of all connections are 10min or less. That's for the whole country including buses. If the train infrastructure was more modern and electric, trains could likely be faster. If the buses had their own lanes (not like Texas doesn't have enough lanes) the avg speed of the bus could likely be improved quite a lot.
This is just about infrastructure choices, apparently Texas can build tons of super complex incredibly expensive highway interchanges but an electric train that leaves every 15min is apparently impossible.
DoT in Texas is still on that 1960 highway building mania and is still destroying black neighborhoods so that subburban wight people can get to their office jobs at the oil company or whatever. The first step is recognizing the problem, and they are still working on that.
The whole area seems like its pretty dense with a lot of people, I don't see why it couldn't have good transit. Even just with buses on existing roads. As long as you make some room for them and give them the appropriate priority and so on. A lot could be done for not that much money, if people actually wanted.
On of the biggest problem in the US is that your tax system if fundamentally unfair and massively subsidizes suburbia. That's arguable one of the most important things that need to change. I strongly suggest looking at the work done by Urban3 and Strong Towns.
> infrastructure has been under-invested in for 100+ years.
This isn't some subway built in 1920 that has barely even had a new train in the past 50 years. The Orange Line opened in 2010. The Red Line in 1996. Some of the stations opened in like 2014. The rolling stock is mostly stuff purchased post-2008. And with the Silver Line, those are all totally new stations on a totally new path with totally new rolling stock. Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about if you're thinking this is stuff that hasn't been invested in for nearly 100 years. But hey, you watched some YouTube videos, so you know exactly what the realities are like living in DFW and know precisely what would solve it.
> more modern and electric
The train in my example is pretty new and electric. Once again, you clearly don't know what you're talking about here.
> an electric train that leaves every 15min is apparently impossible.
The Orange Line and Red Line at its peak is like 7.5ish min intervals. Once again, you clearly don't know what you're talking about here.
> If the buses had their own lanes (not like Texas doesn't have enough lanes) the avg speed of the bus could likely be improved quite a lot.
What, we're going to have 100mph busses going on surface streets or something? Dedicated bus lanes make sense in areas where there's lots of traffic and gridlock, they can do a lot of good there. The bus in the example isn't in one of those places. That road isn't normally very crowded. Forcing the light cycles for the bus would probably save a minute or two, but once again the overall trip is losing by well over a half hour. The overall trip time is worse because you're going to stop that train several times along its path, that bus is going to stop and pick up people. Whereas the car, even if it goes a bit slower because of traffic, is still keeping its average speed at like 50ish mph.
> The whole area seems like its pretty dense with a lot of people
That's the thing. It really isn't. Some people have a several minute drive jus to leave their neighborhood, just to get to the first place where a bus stop would even remotely make any sense to be. Some parts are decently dense, and those are the places where people can and do reasonably take transit as their primary way of travel. But it is definitely not the norm. But hey, once again, you're someone that's watched a few YouTube videos and poked around on Google maps, you definitely know more than the person who's actually lived in it for over a decade.
> It should NEVER take 30 min to swap from one train to another.
Sure. But those trains are going to be largely empty even with the 30 minute service interval. Running them every 5 minutes is burning billions of dollars and lots of energy rolling empty trains. And in the end, look at the math. Shave 15 minutes off the trip. Shave 30 minutes off the trip. The highway path still beats out on time.
> This is just about infrastructure choices
Its far more about city design overall than just "infrastructure". You could replace all the highways overnight in DFW with trains that run every 30 seconds. It'll just increase the overall transit times for all these commuters. Do the math. Look at actual average speeds for whatever design you might propose. It is a fundamental issue with how the cities are laid out and designed from the very foundations. Those average commuters would end up changing trains several times on their commutes. That train is going to have to roll through a bunch of stations and stops in order to actually be useful to the riders. Because its not "mostly people in this area going mostly to that area", its people from an absolutely massive area going to an absolutely massive area.
> Even just with buses on existing roads. As long as you make some room for them and give them the appropriate priority and so on. A lot could be done for not that much money, if people actually wanted.
The thing is, once again, the density and overall design of where I'd want to go. There's a bus stop right outside my house. The routes from there make a decent bit of sense, they go along through a few shopping areas and to the nice downtown Plano area and that bus station there. But I don't often shop at those shopping areas. I go to slightly different ones. So now there would need to either be yet another bus line that goes to each of those different shopping areas, or so much bus service the next bus is just a couple of minutes behind. Otherwise, each of those changes really adds up in time, and suddenly I'm spending 2-3x as much time taking the bus than just driving.
And I'm lucky, I live literally on the edge of my neighborhood. Someone deeper in the neighborhood, it is a 15 minute walk to the main road where the bus is. With the weather right now having a heat index of like 110F. That walk alone is longer than what their drive would be to that store. So then what, we have busses snaking through all the small curvy neighborhood roads? Gee, that'll really make the overall travel time higher. This is why I just completely ignored the travel time for that person to Parker Road Station, you include that and for a lot of people it really blows the travel time up.
And to think, I'm in kind of a small and compact neighborhood for DFW. There's a lot out there with much bigger lots and more separated from the main roads.
So you see how its not just a matter of "well, if only we had more modern electrc trains, and more busses, maybe dedicated bus lanes." It is the fact that person is weighing a 15 minute walk in 110F heat versus leaving their house in an air-conditioned car and getting to their destination in the same amount of time as before they even got on the bus. That bus wait could be 0 minutes, that bus could go practically right where they wanted to go, the bus isn't really stuck in traffic for their route, but because of the layout of their neighborhood and the sprawling nature of all the places they might want to go taking the bus just didn't make sense.
Its far more than just "invest in the infrastructure!" It is changing the mindset. Its building new forms of housing, shopping, and working. And yes, actually building the trains and buying the busses. But we could quadruple the bus fleet of DART and change the train service interval to 10 seconds tomorrow and we'd still have roughly the same ridership. In the end though, I do vote for that more modern city design. I do vote to expand DART. I do vote for bike lanes and better traffic calming. And I do ride transit when it makes sense. I just wish it made more sense more often.
See, that's already an issue. Even in small European cities, you'd expect the trains at peak time to arrive every 5min, in larger cities even every 1-2min
A train every 30min is what I'd consider "3am on easter sunday" level of service, not peak service.
Sure, right now there's not enough demand for that. But as they say, if you build it they'll come.
But change that wait, do the math, and compare it to the drive time again. Ok, we shaved a 15 minute average wait to 2 minutes or so. 13 minutes saved, awesome. We're still comparing a well over an hour public transit trip to a 30 minute drive on the tollways.
In the end you'll need to convince people the costs of the drive (all the many different types of costs there) are worth the trade for more than doubling the commute time.
My in-laws live in Irving, near the Ritz (ex-Four Seasons). The only thing they would ever consider using DART for would be the Texas State Fair (including the UT/OU game), and only because the parking is so expensive and so far away if you drive down there that the time penalty is much smaller.
Then you have the facts on the ground that probably are older than DART: the North Lake College station is a perfect example of bad transit design, as the station is at the edge of the property while the buildings are centered. You could just as easily (with perfect foreknowledge) have put the buildings right next to the station and used the back of the property for parking lots, which adds almost no time to driving but makes transit much more appealing (as it is, those who disembark there have to walk across the entire parking lot to get to the school).
Even worse, the University of Dallas station that has almost no pedestrian access at all. It would take ten minutes walking just to get to the other side of the highway because of the convoluted route you would have to take.
Traffic has to be really bad before public transit with a lot of stops is faster than door-to-door in a car, assuming there's parking at the other end.
You can do many things to make cities more transit-friendly, pedestrian-friendly, bike-friendly. But drivers aren't epsilon-minus semi-morons, and while a car in central Paris or Amsterdam is a liability, in most of Dallas it's at best a minor inconvenience to find parking. And there's absolutely nothing that can ever beat the convenience of a private conveyance. There's a reason really rich people fly private. It goes where you want, when you want.
I took my wife to the airport the other day. There is no public transit that goes to our local airport; you have no choice but to get in a private car or taxi unless you've got serious stamina for walking on fully-exposed public roads (no shade, no rain shield) with no sidewalks and 60+ mph (100 km/h) traffic for tens of miles. On the plus side (for the passenger), I dropped her off more or less right outside the check-in counter and security. She didn't spend more than a minute or two, tops, for all her indoor walking around to the gate.
By combining train and car you can usually end up faster and cheaper if done well as trains won't be stuck in traffic and commuter trains can reliably run at 120-160km/h.
See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41309489 for examples and details on how to solve this long-term.
These DART LRV trains do >100km/h peak speeds. But in the end if you halved the stations you'd really crush the ridership because there's just not enough stuff or people at any particular station.
> But in the end if you halved the stations you'd really crush the ridership because there's just not enough stuff or people at any particular station.
Of course there's enough people left.
First you build train stations near destinations. That's business parks, universities, airports, downtown areas, malls. Then you build train stations with lots of spacing into the suburbs so you can still hit peak speeds between them.
Typical station spacing depends on train speeds, but you can estimate with: 50km/h at 500m spacing, 90km/h for 2km spacing, 120km/h at 5km spacing, 160km/h at 10km spacing.
So you'll want to have 5km-10km spacing between the stations. That's not close enough for walking. But you can set up free parking at the station for anyone with a train ticket. At the same time you'll set up congestion charging for the destinations with stations.
Now the fastest and cheapest way to travel to these dense areas is to drive to the nearest station, park your car, and take the train. For the rest of the city the car remains the fastest option.
Nonetheless, at 2-5km average distance to the nearest station cycling becomes more viable, which primarily benefits teenagers and students.
Later on you can improve upon this by:
· creating bus and tram lines with cross-connections between the larger train stations to serve as distributor lines and connect more people
· changing the minimum setbacks for properties near the bus and tram lines to allow semi-detached and terraced housing. This makes cheaper housing available, increases density, makes transit more viable and still keeps the suburban lifestyle
· changing the zoning near the station to develop 5-over-1s, with 1 level of businesses, 5 levels of apartments and an underground parking garage. This would allow creating something resembling the "main streets" of foregone eras.
Overall you can make these changes over the span of a generation. This is how cities grew during the industrialization in the first place (including in the US) and how european cities have recovered from the post-war car-centric urban design which had destroyed more cities than the war.
Take a look at the route for the Red/Orange lines on DART. Tell me which stations get the axe to make that spacing. Do we kill Downtown Plano or Cityline? Do we kill the stop with the easy bus transfer to the Richardson library and city hall? Do we kill the station next to the massive apartment complexes and the concert hall and office park at Galatyn? Or all the mixed use at Spring Valley? Do people lose access to the hospital and medical facilities near Forest Ln? No more shopping at all the stuff at the Shops at Park Lane and NorthPark mall? Do SMU students lose access to the network by taking away Lovers Ln? Forget all the mixed use at Mockingbird? Tell me, who gets the axe? And you really think we're going to keep ridership up if we eliminate the stop at the hospital or eliminate half the apartment complexes on the path?
The only easy stops I see to eliminate are the ones downtown where it's acting like a streetcar. There were plans for a "D2" project to move these lines underground and change the number of stops.
And all of this is also still assuming there is the bus connections to take you East/West, because there's still so much you miss at each stop on just the train alignment a few miles either direction.
While the plurality of vehicles could be single-occupant passenger vehicles, a good chunk of those vehicles are freight, multiple-occupant passenger vehicles, and some are even busses.
There's a few trucks hauling freight, but they try to miss the cities during rush hour.
There's a lot of trucks hauling freight. The US has the largest train network in the world, it notoriously handles primarily freight, and still, more than 70% of freight in the US goes by truck.
If these roads are the average urban interstate highways, then about 10%ish of the traffic is heavy truck traffic.
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2020/v...
In fact there are so few people in the HOV lane that I always feel like I'm doing something wrong when I take it, like I misunderstood the rules. It can't be this easy.
Nah, I really am the only person on the highway with more than one person in the car.
But that could probably be handled by a US Highway and a diamond interchange instead of multiple interstates and a 6-layer interchange.
We're in a catch 22 trap that will cost trillions and likely a century to get out of.
We've actually had similar issues in many post-war suburbs in Germany when trying to convert them to transit in recent years.
The solution isn't to remove all driving, just driving in areas with too much traffic. So park & ride concepts were created. You build train stations at major hubs and at locations at the edge of town and connect them.
e.g. my mum's commute changed from "drive for 45min in traffic" to "drive 5min to the neighborhood train station that shares its parking lot with the hypermarket next door, wait 10min, ride the train for 5min, arrive at the train station next to her office".
Her commute was cut in half, the business can collect revenue from their mostly unused parking lot during the week (it's sized for saturday shopping traffic), the train station doesn't have to build their own parking lot (the operator pays a few cents per train ticket to the business), and every person using this line is one less car on the road.
This model is already profitable (!), but you can expand further.
You can set up bus or tram routes that offer cross-connections between train stations to further connect schools, university dorms, malls, etc.
You can then improve connectivity within of suburbs. Introduce cross-connections between cul-de-sacs for pedestrians and cyclists, connecting suburbs, apartment complexes, local businesses and train stations.
The density won't be high enough to make walking to the train station viable, but cycling to the station certainly will be. That's not a solution for everyone, but it increases freedom of movement for teenagers and retirees.
So far, all of this is possible in the US today.
But we can dream beyond that:
You'd really want to change the zoning around these hubs over time.
Ideally you'd want to build 5-over-1s with an underground parking garage, shops and stores on the bottom floor, and apartments on the higher floors.
For businesses that need more space you can give the bottom floor a larger footprint and add a green roof which provides something of a community backyard for the occupants of the apartments. Bonus points if you build it as a courtyard in the middle with balconies facing the courtyard.
You'd really want to avoid high rises to ensure you get a growing circle of mid-density development around these hubs, somewhat reminescent of what main streets used to look like (or Disney's Main Street USA with two more floors ontop).
A few cities in the US have actually gotten this far already!
European cities, which suffered more destruction from post-war car-centric city planners than from the war itself, have been using these steps to slowly recover.
These steps are also how cities around the world grew during the industrialization, and how the US got the main streets of old in the first place.
Getting this far will take a whole generation, but where do we go from here?
While this would be the end for solving local commuters, it'd only be the beginning for inter-city journeys.
HSR is 2×-3× faster than cars and can be faster than flying for journeys below 1500-2000km, but it only works if you've already got local hubs with a dense transit network connecting them to the rest of the city.
How many years is the break even point before profit is generated charging riders even 100$ per trip?
Some of these highspeed rail projects proposed across the USA have a 1-2000 year break-even excluding maintenance over 2000 years @ 100$/rider/trip
Depends on what you are optimizing for.
I can drive to work in 15 minutes, door-to-door. I used to ride the bus and sometimes I would be waiting that long just for the bus to appear.
The other factor is weather. Not many of the bus shelters around me (I’m in Austin) are air conditioned. Right now it’s 103F / 39C with a feels-like temperature of 107 / 42. Depending on your health, just walking around can be dangerous.
I used to think like you, that having car was a necessity, even freedom. Now I see it for what it is, a ball and chain.
Numbers taken from wikipedia.
Texas alone is twice the size of Germany - which is really crazy.
When an American says, "that is a three-day drive", they don't mean it will take three days of six hours a day with breaks every hour or two. They mean it will take three days of driving 12+ hours a day with 10-minute breaks every three or four hours. NY to LA is around 41 hours of actual driving per Google. So three consecutive 14-hour days just in the car, not counting getting a hotel room along the way, eating, using the bathroom, showering...
That many American cities are these monstrosities where car travel is the only way to navigate is because of poor design not out of necessity. The American car industry managed to halt the installation of public transport to a more effective degree than their European counterparts in the 50-60s.
This is not because Los Angeles is bigger than Zürich, or that it takes twice as long to cross the US compared to Europe by car.
In Zürich and Switzerland, they have highly effective trains. The US could do the same, but choose not to.
Everytime(without fail) I mention how fantastic public transport can be using Zürich as an example, Americans mention that the "US is simply too big".
But that is not an argument! Build more lines? London also has a pretty solid public transport system(though not as great as it could be, due to how car centric the country is).
It is really is quite remarkable. However, I think this is enabled by expensive high density apartment housing.
Americans would consider the apartment sizes inhumane and a supermajority of the population are locked out of our owning a home.
I don't know why you think there are fewer amenities here than in the US. What specific amenities do you think are lacking?
a 15 minute walk from me there are public baths(free, including the amazing Limmat river with crystal clear water), hiking(free), amazing bars, night clubs and restaurants.
That said, US Metro cores are denser than anything in CH but have worse transit, demonstrating the importance of door to door analysis. Nobody wants to commute via mixed private and public transport.
In a bus-optimized city, you'd be saying something like "Sure I can drive to work in 15 minutes, but it takes 5 minutes to park, costs $20 a day, and it's ten minutes walking from the parking lot to the office. Much better to take a bus that stops right across the street."
But I do think you are on the right track. I think public transportation in the form of buses doesn't make a lot of sense. But if Musk had been able to deliver on his promise of self-driving cars, then a giant city operated (or at least funded) fleet of small autonomous vehicles offering door-to-door service and route flexibility could change everything.
Cars are low to medium density transport, at best.
That wasn't true in the past. My father used to carpool with other teachers for 20+ years. I remember a lot of carpooling through the 1980s and into the mid 1990s where it fizzled out.
I would suggest, however, that self-driving cars would be fine for carpooling. Most people would have no problem carpooling with a self-driving car if it always picked up the same bunch of people every day. If I can commute in 35 minutes or take a self-driving carpool for 45 because it stopped to pick up 3 other people from my department along the way, that would be fine.
Car culture builds car cities. Once you have a car city it's nearly impossible to fix it... it's too big and expensive and low density to fix.
Allow higher density housing to be built without opposition (for example up zoning 1 level should be automatically approved: single family home can be torn down to build a duplex, etc). Then reduce and remove parking requirements.
Once that's done density will just go up on its own and... cars don't scale. Traffic will absolutely murder everyone and they'll start demanding public transit.
However this whole path is killed via NIMBY.
I see so many new residential projects with small lots or apartments. That's great! But still the zoning forces just housing, so its just homes on homes on homes for miles.
Where does the bus go? If you have dense city cores with business, commercial, and shopping it makes sense.
Living near Austin, I could take a bus to a place like the domain and have shaded walkways where I could walk to most shops without dying of heat stroke.
If I'm not going to the domain, I'm looking at businesses with huge parking lots strung along stroads. Walking from the bus drop off to a store might just kill you on a day like yesterday where it was 108F, and parking lot temps are closer to 130F.
Also getting to where you want to go over the huge spread out cities may involve waiting for 5 or 6 different busses.
And then hopefully your park and ride is being watched and you're windows aren't broken out.
This interchange provides food and prosperity to millions of people. And it's an incredible feat.
The cynical attitude is just cliche and tacky give it up.
EDIT: There are some more theories here:
https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/4238/why-are...
Obviously there may be many contributing factors, but I expect one is dominant. This one is most convincing to me: The flyover ramp generally needs to go over some things and under other things. Additionally, for both safety and rider comfort, the ramp needs to be vertically smooth, not having fast drops or rapid climbs. That means ramp A might pass over ramp B by a lot more than the minimum amount because ramp A also needs to pass over ramp C just a bit later, where it does so by a much lower amount. With many overlapping constraints like this, most ramp intersections are much higher than the minimum clearance even though none can be lowered without either (1) making one of the clearances below minimum or (2) forcing a ramp to rapidly climb/descent.
The theories I've heard as to why TXDOT does this include: they wanted sufficient clearance for mobile oil drilling rigs, military vehicles[0], "just in case", and of course, bragging rights.
You can zoom in and click on the blue dots to see clearances on major TXDOT bridges here:
https://gis-txdot.opendata.arcgis.com/datasets/0126e7969bfb4...
[0] The US interstate system wasn't really planned for use by the Department of Defense in time of war, but the bill was named "National System of Interstate and Defense Highways" to help it get passed in Congress. This isn't to say that during a national emergency, the highways couldn't be cleared of civilian traffic.
https://highways.dot.gov/highway-history/interstate-system/5...
The vertical height of things we want to send down the highway are also sometimes larger than the tallest trucks on the highway.
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/news-journal.co...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41303428
Thanks for the pointer though.
I've never seen one built all at once. It's always a bunch of incremental changes over time.
I have seen scenarios in Texas when there is seemingly no other infrastructure or geography that could explain the over building.
The broader question I've always had, that's not addressed in the article, is "so why do California and Texas build so many stack interchanges while the rest of the country mostly does not?"
> And the design that generally provides the most capacity, on the smallest footprint, (often for the highest cost), is the stack.
This would explain why there are plenty in coastal California, where there are tons of people to move around and where space is very much at a premium.
I've lived in CA and the Northeast. I didn't get the impression that either region uses them preferentially. Certainly I see them more in CA, but I feel like that is probably because the number of interchanges is higher, ha!
Stack interchanges are very common for high-traffic areas, some of which wouldn't necessarily show up on your mental radar.
In fact, being from Houston, I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't know what you meant if you said frontage road. It's that pervasive.
From the OP:
>They say everything’s bigger in Texas
Me say:
$ echo "They say everything’s bigger in Texas" | sed 's/They/Texans/' | sed 's/bigger/biggest/'
echo ", including their egos."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compensation_(psychology)
I can’t take an engineering article seriously when it leads in with bias-revealing invectives. Does EVERYTHING have to be politicized?
I mean the less you move the cranes around the cheaper I’m sure
Cronyism.
Am I honestly the only one who wants to see a video of him getting punched in the face? He really needs to be punched in the face.